Water quench for everything?

P

Protactical

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Aug 24, 2003
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When I think about traditional forges, or Japanese forges, it seems like they always have a big bucket of water there for the quench. I don't know that I expect to do better than the best Japanese smiths, or the smiths that worked in colonial America. As a small shop guy, it would simplify things to be able to use water as a quench, everyone has buckets or troughs that can hold water, and containers could be made of readily available materials like wood (I'm a cabinet guy I know the various secrets of the waterproof box). That would allow me to have ample water to quench my steel in, rather than always trying to get by with the least material available. Further it would be an advantage to have something that puts all that nasty fire out, ready to hand.

I've been using O1 mostly for my tools, but I'm starting to think of other things that will get me the results I want without vats of toxic flammables about the place, maybe Hitachi white and blue paper steel for the fine edges, and 10XX steels for the knives, or 5160.

I'm interested to hear from any like minded people about your strategies. It used to work in the past, it should still work today.
 
I would like Mete's opinion but I would guess that as long as you stay with the shallow to medium hardening steels, those which you itemized for instance, you should be good to go if you can develope a touch for water quenching.

RL
 
You go right ahead and quench all the steel in water you desire. Especially the "king of steel" 5160. :)

It can be done but it's just a bit wierd feeling the steel wiggle around like a snake when you quench it.

Let us know your results.
 
We give the steels a general classification of water, oil or air hardening for a reason.You'll find the limits of speed of quench of a steel when you start to get cracking !!
 
I've got to go with Mete. I've tried water and broken a lot of steel. Wet sand isn't too bad but I think I will stay with good old Crisco for most of the simple steels I use.

You will also find that a lot of the Japanese masters had a little more than plain water in the trough!
 
I'll share something that I got from a local blacksmith. I think he is now over 90 years old, and still has all the forge work he can handle. He still runs the shop of his master, which was built... hell, I don't know when. At least 100 years ago.

I came in early one morning to watch him forge, and he straightened out some twisted wagon tongues for someone, and another of his tasks was to sharpen a big chisel- about 1" diameter and 10" long. Well, of course rather than grind it, he was going to re forge the edge. So, he brought it up to heat in his coal forge, and tripped the clutch on his 25 pound Little Giant, and reshaped its edge.

Next he brought it back up to heat to reharden it. While it was in the forge, I asked where his tank of quenching oil was. He said something to the effect of, "I tried oil for a while, but I see no need to mess with it since water works just as well." Now, I wanna point out this guy didn't make knives, and pretty much all of the edged tools he hardened were rather thick in cross section, but he used water on all kinds of steel. I soon learned it was his technique that probably allowed him to be successful. He brought the red hot chisel out the forge, and just barely touched the edge to the surface of the water until it hissed. After about a second, he removed it, and cupped his hand around it to block the light & check the color of the steel. (he said he usually turned off the lights to do this; he was being a bit hasty to demonstrate for me) Then he touched it to the water for about another second, and checked it again. Repeated again, and then touched it to the surface for a few seconds, and then plunged it in all the way. He tested the edge with a file, and it did get hardened.

Many of the steels he worked with would have probably cracked if just plunged directly into the water, but by interrupting the quench and just barely dipping the tip, he was able to have pretty good control on the speed of heat removal. I personally think these methods would be difficult to apply to knives, but if you really want to work with water, this might help you.
 
That's pretty much the procedure for draw tempering Possum. I never thought of trying it to harden and temper at once.
 
I have been reading at some of the sword maker's websites, and I have found an interesting way to do a water quench.

(Now mind you, I have never done this, nor do I ever plan to do a water quench, but this is what I have read is done sometimes.)

On a big long sword, like a long Japanese sword, the sword maker covers the whole blade in clay.

A watered down clay slurry is painted on the whole blade to form a bond that will hold the thicker clay layers.

Then a thin layer of clay is added to the whole blade. After this is hard, a thicker layer of clay is added to just the spine section of the sword.

The idea is that the thin layer of clay will prevent the water from forming a steam vapor barrier along the cutting edge. The thin clay sucks up the water at just the right speed to assure proper speed for a Harding quench.

The thicker clay along the spine cools slower and so it will become a tougher steel area.

To keep the thick clay stuck fast to the sword, the maker will use wire to wrap the clay into position.
 
Possum I was taught to harden and temper chisels by an "old weldor"

same method cept this old man after he hardened it would polish the chisel and then temper the chisel by heating the chisel behind the edge and watching the colors run. He again quenched the edge at a straw color. waited a few seconds and quenched it again. Repeated that procedure until it the heat was gone.


It's a little bit diffrent with a knife blade. You could do it though. :D
 
you might want to look into anvilfire.com, there's a bunch of good old smiths there that i know will have a lot to say about these methods. some of those guys have also made a knife or two, and i'm sure crossed method from bladesmithing and blacksmithing. might be a good resource to learn about some of those water quenching methods. i know with a traditional blacksmith shop they would have their slack tub with a smaller slack tub seated over it filled with brine, this gave a slower quench than the water but not as slow as the oil. well thats how it was explained to me. :rolleyes: :confused:
 
I did the brine quench thing one time. All my tools were suddenly covered in rust.

If you use it keep it outside or covered.

Look up the Nepalese Kukri makers they use a teapot quench. It works, I've done that on small knives 5160

Some steels just don't like a water quench. What steel were we talking about anyway?
 
Michael, you have it backwards. Brine is the fastest quench, faster than plain water....Sweany ,the only thing I've done like your chisel quench is a center punch.The proper way is to heat the whole thing to nonmagnetic, quench just the tip,quickly polish the tip, wait till the heat from the body of the punch colors the tip to the desired temper color , then quench the entire punch.....I don't recommend this type of hardening or brine quench for blades.
 
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