Waterstone Tips and Advice

ncrockclimb

ncrockclimb

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Nov 20, 2014
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I recently took the plunge and purchased two waterstones: a Shapton Pro 320 and a Shapton Pro 1000. I am very excited about these stones and have already used them to sharpen two of my cheap knives.

I know that the learning curve on waterstones is quite steep, and I know that there are a few folks on here that are extremely experienced and competent with waterstones. It would be great if we had a thread where folks could post up their tips on how use waterstones.

My one meager piece of advice is to GO SLOW. Carefully find your angle, and consistently keep that angle by moving slow. A lot of folks in videos sharpen very quickly. That is great. However, I have found that the quicker I sharpen the less consistent my angle becomes.

What advice can you offer?
 
Keep them lapped . Shaptons wear slowly, but still stay on top of the lapping do it regularly.

+1 on the going slow , the Japanese folks in videos going 100mph have been doing this for years and they are sharpening different bevels take it slow and take your time like you would with any other stone .

Keep the stones wet . I see so many people letting these stones get dry . It doesn't take much water but keep the stone wet.

I prefer to finish on whatever grit with stropping strokes . I'll apex a new edge then strop . Say I set a bevel on a 320 and move to 1k. I only use stropping strokes on the 1k stone the edges are a lot better for me .

When getting the hang of water stones go for more sharp less pretty . Focus on the bevel or the edge and get the sharpest edge possible . When you get the sharpness you want then worry about that pretty mirror polish .

I also see folks spend 2 minutes on a coarse stone and 20 on a finisher that's backwards IMHO. You want the edge nearly done off your coarse stone so as you progress in grits you refine the edge in no time at all . If you spend more time on the finisher than the coarse stone then your work was not done on the coarse stone
 
Move around on the stone to avoid dishing and make lapping easier/less material removal. Normally when I finish using mine I leave them a little dirty, toss them back in the bath. Next time I go to use them I lightly hit them with a DMT XXC or a 180 grit lapidary diamond disk. The areas that clean up first are the high spots and I'll work on them first. It doesn't take much of this before you'll understand your usage patterns and be able to work the stone to avoid a lot of uneven wear. Keep in mind, on softer stones or in situations where the same spot on the stone is being hammered, you can create a negative effect on the current job, not just future ones should the stone groove or dish.

I seldom lap the entire surface and if I do, it goes very quickly even if I've failed to do so for a bunch of use.

Much of any good waterstone advice will be specific to a given brand in many cases. My Juuma have very little in common with my Nortons, I sometimes don't even fight for those last few backhone passes as the stone is so hard and stingy with the mud.

I like to rinse most of the mud off the stone as I get to finishing up on a given stone. If the stone is very muddy the frosted effect from the loose grit lapping action can hide incomplete grinding and small burrs.

Going slow is good when starting or if you're feeling for the proper angle, but once dialed in you will get a lot of feedback by moving more rapidly - as long as your technique will allow it with good control. The biggest drawback to speed aside from possible loss of angle accuracy, is the stone will have a tendency to groove faster if you do not move around.

I'm sure more will come to me....

Martin
 
Does anyone ever strop on leather with compound as a last step after water stones? I did this yesterday and was happy with the results. However I felt like I was cheating at the end...
 
So...

I have had three sessions with my Shaptons with pretty mixed results. I have been able to raise a burr on my 320 on both scandi and flat grind knives. This was much easier on the scandi, but I think that with practice I will get better at maintaining the angle while freehanding on the flat grind. However, I cannot get shaving sharp with either the 1000 or 5000 stones. I can cut magazine paper OK (not great), but that is as sharp as I can get my knife on just the water stones. By stropping on leather at the end, I can get shaving sharp, but I cannot get anywhere near the same edge I can attain with just my KME and diamond hones. Also, I cannot get a good mix of sharp and toothy with the waterstones.

Is this just a case of needing to practice more? Are there common mistakes that I should be watching out for?

I want to get good at freehand sharpening. However, I get such an amazing edge with so little effort with the KME that I sometimes wonder if it is worth it to spend all this time freehanding...

Anyway, any advice would be appreciated.
 
My advice is kind of controversial but, especially for very precise edges such as one would put on a woodworking plane blade or a machine tool tool-bit, and I find I like my EDCs sharpened the same way; here goes :

Forget slurry. Wash it off and keep the stone's pores clean and open. One can "cheat" and make one or two stones polish the edge like finer stones but time and precision are lost. If you dig the polished edges just USE MORE STONES progressively finer.

Second learn to free hand and then ALWAYS use a jig or guide. Unless you are on a job site or out in the weeds and you need to sharpen something to finish the job then you may have no choice but to freehand it. You simply can not hold an angle to a fraction of a degree by hand , stone to stone, edge to edge especially when you are tired or in a hurry. A jig makes it child's play and makes a better cutting geometry, even if it takes more time to set up. To free hand and keep increasing the angle to stay on the edge or to strop is not the best edge for cutting harder materials even though it may cut hair and squishy stuff like crazy.

The exception may be a carving tool where you are riding on the roundy bevel and shaving thin curls off of a curved surface but if you are trying to cut in a flat plane or hard stuff with the greatest ease or leave the best finish then a "Machined" edge is best. A side benefit is that a jig saves blade material.
 
PS: if you are free handing then use a Jeweler's visor to really see how all the wobbling around on the stone is effecting the edge and the bevel(s) next to the edge.

 
ncrockclimb said:
So...

I have had three sessions with my Shaptons with pretty mixed results. I have been able to raise a burr on my 320 on both scandi and flat grind knives. This was much easier on the scandi, but I think that with practice I will get better at maintaining the angle while freehanding on the flat grind. However, I cannot get shaving sharp with either the 1000 or 5000 stones. I can cut magazine paper OK (not great), but that is as sharp as I can get my knife on just the water stones. By stropping on leather at the end, I can get shaving sharp, but I cannot get anywhere near the same edge I can attain with just my KME and diamond hones. Also, I cannot get a good mix of sharp and toothy with the waterstones.

Is this just a case of needing to practice more? Are there common mistakes that I should be watching out for?

I want to get good at freehand sharpening. However, I get such an amazing edge with so little effort with the KME that I sometimes wonder if it is worth it to spend all this time freehanding...

Anyway, any advice would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I highly advise you not learn on knives you value. This adds a level of desperation and or frustration to the process that is not helpful.
Angle control is somewhat crucial to good freehand and takes a few to develop. To start, aim for a lower angle initially so you still have an acute angle as you finish. Maybe reset the angle on a few knives with the KME and work on up by hand.

Move around on the stone, a small amount is better than not at all. Even on a hard stone if you pound away on one spot it will groove or dish and this could cause problems .

If using a scrubbing motion, put emphasis on the trailing portion and keep the contact pressure light. Keep your movements small at first. Learn to feel where on the edge you are.

Rinsing the stone often is also a good idea as it will keep your scratch pattern more clearly defined and easier to diagnose problems. Stop often, every few passes, to observe what's happening and make corrections.

Most waterstones will produce a better edge with a few trailing passes to finish, after removing the burr with a few leading passes. Strop on plain paper or newspaper wrapped around a dry stone as a final step - this will polish up any residual burrs and really make them stand out, also takes the edge up a notch without softening the apex angle. Some stones are too hard to effectively finish with backhone passes without raising a new burr immediately, not sure about your Shaptons. If it becomes problematic just finish with light leading passes. Super light pressure at the finishing stone work is essential for a good outcome.

Freehand tips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuGwd9YZ8_g

and put to use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DWdfhnpBe0
 
Totally agree with Martin

The reason people using jigs is because primarily it's a challenge to achieve the same free hand. Don't easily give up, but don't use your nice knives to practice either.

Good simulation is to get some Spyderco 8Cr (byrd series) as it will provide adequate bevel width to learn on. Using cheap paring knives is possible but not knowing the steel, sometimes will give more problem. Also kitchen/paring knife usually is thin, and the resulting bevel at same angle will not be as easy to detect. It's still useful to practice holding an angle though.
 
Chris "Anagarika";16181504 said:
Totally agree with Martin

The reason people using jigs is because primarily it's a challenge to achieve the same free hand. Don't easily give up, but don't use your nice knives to practice either.

Good simulation is to get some Spyderco 8Cr (byrd series) as it will provide adequate bevel width to learn on. Using cheap paring knives is possible but not knowing the steel, sometimes will give more problem. Also kitchen/paring knife usually is thin, and the resulting bevel at same angle will not be as easy to detect. It's still useful to practice holding an angle though.
Click to expand...

Chris, the paring knife idea works well with the victorinox brand knives. Not A HORRIBLE steel, good to learn on and inexpensive.
When I am experimenting, or trying a new stone I many times whip out an old victorinox chef and paper as my test subjects.
Russ
 
mycough said:
Chris, the paring knife idea works well with the victorinox brand knives. Not A HORRIBLE steel, good to learn on and inexpensive.
When I am experimenting, or trying a new stone I many times whip out an old victorinox chef and paper as my test subjects.
Russ
Click to expand...

I do this but I found some chef knives made of a decent steel ran at a decent hardness for 9.99 . Site sells then as practice knives as well as regular old kitchen knives .I agree though having a stand by knife that you know very well and have sharpened is a great way to test a new stone .
 
Ncrockclimb,

Yes, I use Chromium Oxide or with very tough hard steels,,,, diamond paste on hard thin leather strops.

Regards,
FK
 
ncrockclimb said:
So...

I have had three sessions with my Shaptons with pretty mixed results. I have been able to raise a burr on my 320 on both scandi and flat grind knives. This was much easier on the scandi, but I think that with practice I will get better at maintaining the angle while freehanding on the flat grind. However, I cannot get shaving sharp with either the 1000 or 5000 stones. I can cut magazine paper OK (not great), but that is as sharp as I can get my knife on just the water stones. By stropping on leather at the end, I can get shaving sharp, but I cannot get anywhere near the same edge I can attain with just my KME and diamond hones. Also, I cannot get a good mix of sharp and toothy with the waterstones.

Is this just a case of needing to practice more? Are there common mistakes that I should be watching out for?

I want to get good at freehand sharpening. However, I get such an amazing edge with so little effort with the KME that I sometimes wonder if it is worth it to spend all this time freehanding...

Anyway, any advice would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

The SP5k will yield an edge that will about split hairs, it's a very good stone that can be used both edge leading and trailing, though I would recommend edge trailing on the finishing strokes. This stone also does very well at burr removal allowing for a very sharp and clean edge right from the stone... stropping optional.

The SP1k is still a fairly coarse stone and will yield a good amount of burr on the edge, not exactly easy to remove with this stone either. You can get it clean enough to shave arm hair and easily slice paper and if followed with a little stropping it can make a great edge for EDC. Following with a few light strops on the 5k can make for a very good edge too.

Practice more and worry less, it will come just give it some time.
 
Thanks for all the advice!!! I have learned so much from the forum and cannot thank you guys enough.

I actually have a few condor knives and one "el cheapo" (that can take an amazing edge) thAt I got from a maker here that I use for sharpening practice.

I will keep practicing and keep you guys posted on my progress.
 
+1 for keeping the stones wet and also I use a little dish soap to "clean" the stones. Probably not the best practice, but I've taken my two stones and rubbed them together to flatten/remove the "gunk" coatings. Anyway, just protect them and I usually dry them standing up, but my mom in law likes to bang them around so the corners are chipped.

I often put them on a wet paper towel to hold them in place on the counter top.
 
mycough said:
Chris, the paring knife idea works well with the victorinox brand knives. Not A HORRIBLE steel, good to learn on and inexpensive.
When I am experimenting, or trying a new stone I many times whip out an old victorinox chef and paper as my test subjects.
Russ
Click to expand...

Victorinox paring/chef knives are really good test knives. They get very sharp. My concern was more towards unknown knives/steel. I have experienced some that won't take an edge.
In fact my wife uses them and I'm still maintaining them. (Victorinox)
 
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Also its good practice to clean your stone off after use , I'm guilty of not doing it and I've paid the price .

I've had my share of orange water stones because I left swarf or slurry on the stone and it rusts.

Another little thing I do since I don't really have a pond but if you have a cutting board they fit perfectly in your sink and you have easy access to water . I'll throw the cutting board across the sink and put stone holder on top of it and go to work .

I've even let the tap dribble on the stone while using it when I didn't have time to let my soaking stones soak all the way.

Another thing . I have a naniwa ss 10k in about 5 pieces now.Rather than throw it away I use it as a Nagura. Rub 10k piece on my 6k or a natural stone and it may not yield as good as the 10kndid by itself but it polishes better than the 6k by itself
 
If your just learnin buy a angle guide thing to get it right then try completely freehand

Some people said go extreamly slow that might be true if your a beginner but I go quite fast on whet stones and I'm kinda new to it

If I go slow my angle just kinda falls out its weird I know but that's how I learned to sharpen


Y'all might say well you have no experiance here but I have extreamly good results on my knives mirror edge and all
 
Second the motion of paring knife sharpening. Victorinox paring knives are extremely easy to get an edge on.
 
I have been working with two inexpensive Condor knives. One is scandi and one is a flat grind with w/ an edge bevel.

The scandi was easy. I can get it to shaving sharp with little problem. Scandi + water stones = easy and COOL!!!

The flat grind continue to be a challenge. I started off by using my KME and a coarse hone to reprofile the edge from 28 dps to 19 dps. I then dulled the edge to where it would not cut copy paper and went to work on my Shapton 320. It has taken me a long time and 3 session, but I finally got a burr! I made extensive use a sharpie and an angle cube, and I found the biggest challenge was keeping the sharpening angle consistent. The "trick" I found was putting the cube on the knife, positioning it at the correct angle and then placing my finger between the blade and stone. Then, every few strokes I would use my finger in the same position to ensure I was keeping the correct sharpening angle. I don't know if anyone else does this, but it worked for me...
 
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