We need a heat treat chart!

Daniel Fairly Knives

Daniel Fairly Knives

Full Time Knifemaker
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I apologize if this is in the stickys or has been brought up in the past, I have read them a bunch and can't find a definitive, simple chart for heat treating.

There is often loads of debate about heat treat but there is only right way to do it. How about we make a chart? I know it would need information about steel type, quenchant type (medium, fast, air, etc), critical temp, preheat temp/time, high heat/soak time, maybe a notes section for recommended anti-scale compounds, do they need foil, can they get a hamon, etc...

I'll put it together if you ya'll think it is a good idea and want to help out with information.

Lets leave all the debate about quench oils, heat sources, and that kind of thing out of this. Maybe we could have alternate methods listed for those of us who only want to make a few knives or whatever, i.e. canola for medium quench oil and brine for fast quench if we decide on that.

Sound like a good idea?
 
It already exists.
Product Dimensions: 11 x 8.5 x 2.2 inches thick
Price: $255.20

http://www.amazon.com/Heat-Treaters-Guide-Practices-Procedures/dp/0871705206
51KiM8osotL._SL500_.jpg


Knifemaking is specialized with very thin sections and a widespread use of small batch equipment (foil envelopes vs vacuum gas quench , but it's a HUGE undertaking.

I would just start with industrial standards, then ask specific people specific questions to tweak it for your purpose.

and

You will never get a consensus of opinion here, there are just too many different approaches and ideologies.
 
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Beat me to it.
The ASM guide has all the info you will need. You do need the understanding of the metallurgical process of austinitzing and quenching to use it, though. Numbers without the knowledge of what they mean is not all that useful. Reading Kevin's and the other metallurgical stickies will help you understand what happens during the quench.

The problem in making a new, simple chart comes from you first parameter conflicting with your last one. It can't be definitive and simple if you have different procedures for different people.
 
It would also help if we all acquired our steels from the same source, who always got it from the same mill in the same dimensions and alloy, we all used Even Heat ovens and thermo-controlled Don Fogg forges and used nothing but Parks-Heatbath products in conjunction with Harbison Walker clays and refractories.
Not to mention all being taught basic knife making from the same manual.

Not being a real smart alec here - well maybe a little - but since we all have entirely different set-ups and procedures, learn the best you can and do the best with what you have.

This IS a learning process like no other and just takes time.
Get out spend time in other maker's shops.
This internet gig is cool, but nothing beats a weekend at a hammer-in or a taking a class.
Make some mistakes and learn from them.
 
Amen Karl! :thumbup:

I couldn't explain it any better than Karl.....but will add this...

There are as many ways to do this (build knives) as there are people out there doing it. Heat treat guides and data should be used as a STARTING POINT. Your objective as a knife maker should always be to take the "next logical step."
 
im sure you dont want my HT for 1084 as its for kitchen knives not hunters not campers not mill spec blades (see how interestig this get fast )
 
Not to dispute everyone above me, and they certainly know more than I do, but I'd be glad to help with the chart. With maybe twenty different steel types common in knifemaking, a quick guide to HT would be helpful in choosing steel type for various projects.

I think what's missing from the OP is a section on each steel's pros and cons. Somewhere where it says L6 is good for bainite and heavy choppers, not that great for fillet knives.

If you really wish to make the list, let's start with common steel types. I've attached a zip file of the excel spreadsheet

Sandvik 12C27 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .60 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 13.50

Sandvik 13C26 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .68 Mn .60 Si .40 Cr 13.00

Sandvik 19C27 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .95 Mn .65 Si .40 Cr 13.50

Hitachi ATS-34 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .40 Si .25 Cr 13.75 Mo 3.5

440C Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .45 Si .30 Cr 17.00 Mo .50

154 CM Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Mn .50 Si .30 Cr 14.00 Mo 4.00

CPM S30V Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.45 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 14.00 Va 4.00 Mo 2.00

CPM 154CM Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Mn .50 Si .30 Cr 14.00 Mo 2.00

410 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .15 max Mn 1.00 max Si 1.00 max Cr 11.50-13.50 Ni 8.00-10.00

416 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .15 max Mn 1.25 max Si 1.10 max Cr 12.00-14.00

Tool Steels
D-2 Tool Steel
Flat Gound
Typical Chemistry:C 1.50 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 12.00 Va .95 Mo .90

O-1 Tool Steel
Precision Ground
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .60 Si .30 Cr 5.20 Va .30 Mo 1.10

Alloys & Others
8670M (L-6 Alternative)
Typical Chemistry: C .64-.75 Mn .40-.60 Si .25 Ni .70-1.0 Mo .05-.10

15 N 20
Typical Chemistry: C .75 Mn .75 Si .25 Ni 1.5

52100
Typical Chemistry: C 1.02 Mn .36 Si .25 Cr 1.46

A203E Alloy
Typical Chemistry: C .09 Mn .64 Si .34 Ni 3.58 Cr .030 Mo .010
Stock Gauges: .250"

Spring Steels
HR 1075/1080
Typical Chemistry: C .70/.88 Mn .40/.90

HR 1095
Typical Chemistry: C .90/1.04 Mn .60/.90

CRA 1095
Typical Chemistry: C .90/1.04 Mn .60/.90

HR 5160
Typical Chemistry: C .60 Mn .85 P .035 max S .040 max

Yes, I know these steels aren't always exactly the same, but as noted above, this is a starting point, not the final HT solution.
 

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While I definately agree with the posts saying that a simple list would be inaccurate, I still think something could be made that could act as a starting point.

As someone just starting out my process for determining a heat treat procedure is currently to search through the forum for whatever type of steel I am using. Then look through all the different methods and try to find a consensus, giving higher priority to the opinions of the more scientific based, experienced makers. If I choose a different steel for my next project I would need to do that all over again.

It would be nice to have at least a sticky, if not a chart, that simplifies this. It will never be as correct, or complete as the book mentioned above, but it also wouldn't cost $250, and would give new makers a starting place.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
There is often loads of debate about heat treat but there is only right way to do it.
Click to expand...

Daniel, this one line from your post is a false premise. For instance, even Crucible spec sheets generally offer three austenizing temperatures, several quench options and wide range tempering tables for two of those options. Even those few permutations lead to hundreds of possibilities for a "right way to do it" - and they certainly aren't exhaustive.

Most of us freely give out our heat treat "secrets". Heck, most of mine are posted on the Even-Heat web site, but I'd be offended if anyone described them as the only right way. My signature line at the bottom of this post applies to this issue more than any other.

Rob!
 
Hmmm, getting knifemakers to all agree on a definition of a “successful” heat treat, in a simple format… how many years do we get to do it in? We could tackle it right after we wrap up that whole world peace thing;).

There are lots of old sayings about how the value of things is proportional to how much effort goes into achieving them. You will notice a common attitude among the guys in this thread that have been at this for some time and who’s work is held in high regard, they know that simple solutions and short cuts are not the path to excellence. We have all been there though, looking at the piles of daunting information that make your head spin and years of the learning curve ahead of us. But the only way through it is straight ahead, building your knowledge and skills as you go and I think what the good gentlemen that have been there are saying is that easy fixes or solutions to get around learning the craft are a dead end.
 
Ok, what about a sticky that contains the TTT diagrams for the common knife steels. Combined with a brief explanation of the TTT and how to use it, that could provide a good jumping off point for makers.
Maybe also throw in some information about the speed of a few different quench mediums as they relate to a TTT.
 
having a list of data sheets and TTT woudl be a great start
but if all you have is a torch or forge its hard to go by the recipe

read as i have a torch so my HT is heat to non mag. and quench then temper by torching the blade to straw (it will make a blade with soem of the steels listed ) if all they have is a torch or forge and thats there best work then great and they can build from that

as much as i dont liek all the same old newbie ?s all the time to make it sound liek you needed a easy bake knife oven (kiln) to get started in knife making would run off alot of people that might one day make great knives

Me i love data sheets adn TTTs as i can read then and pick what should work great for my steel of choice and the use then tune from there (i have a kiln and LN2 AL plates parks 50 and other HT stuff tho
 
zaph1 said:
CPM 154CM Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Mn .50 Si .30 Cr 14.00 Mo 2.00
Click to expand...

Accurate data entry would make you crazy on a project like this. :) There actually are some starting points if that is what you are looking for. Crucible datasheets are very useful and available online. Admiral Steel offers some HT specs on their website. Tidewater is also a great resource. EvenHeat has a range of HT info, most of it directed at knifemakers. Starting points are out there. Just because they differ does not mean they are wrong.

Rob!
 
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Sorry Rob, I just copied the info from Admiral Steel. It was the simplest list I could find and agree that there are a few types of steel that need included/modified. Just trying to help. When the list is finished, I'll laminate a copy and hang it in the shop for quick reference.

Quick reference guide to HT. Implying quick, simplified data, just enough to get started. Maybe not a complete HT formula, but one that gives enough to know that "Heat to bright red and quench" isn't enough for S30V. Surely it's possible to make a list that tells us beginners at least that much.
 
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zaph1 said:
Sorry Rob, I just copied the info from Admiral Steel. It was the simplest list I could find and agree that there are a few types of steel that need included/modified. Just trying to help. When the list is finished, I'll laminate a copy and hang it in the shop for quick reference.
Click to expand...

Hey, no apology required. I was just pointing out the challenges are more than getting concensus. Apparently that one was Admiral's typo. It ocurrs to me that everything out there is someone trying to share something that has worked for them. Goddard has his goop. Kevin has all that silly science stuff. I have my recipe to get 440c 'as quenched' at RHC 63.

In the words of Charles Dickens Tiny Tim; "God bless us every one!" :D

Edited to add; Apparently someone thought I was serious in referring to "Kevin's silly science stuff". For the record, I was kidding - and I generally only poke fun at someone if I feel they are beyond reproach. That makes Kevin fair game. :D
 
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To start, I have read through the stickies, and worked through some tests on the steel types I use and have come up with what I believe results in a quality result.

Maybe what would be interesting would be to discuss each steel type at a time and get some input just on that steel and see where the differences lay/lie?

I think it would could be possible to come to a "starting point" for HT on each steel type based on the average discussion?
 
zaph1 said:
Not to dispute everyone above me, and they certainly know more than I do, but I'd be glad to help with the chart. With maybe twenty different steel types common in knifemaking, a quick guide to HT would be helpful in choosing steel type for various projects.

I think what's missing from the OP is a section on each steel's pros and cons. Somewhere where it says L6 is good for bainite and heavy choppers, not that great for fillet knives.

If you really wish to make the list, let's start with common steel types. I've attached a zip file of the excel spreadsheet

Sandvik 12C27 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .60 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 13.50

Sandvik 13C26 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .68 Mn .60 Si .40 Cr 13.00

Sandvik 19C27 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .95 Mn .65 Si .40 Cr 13.50

Hitachi ATS-34 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .40 Si .25 Cr 13.75 Mo 3.5

440C Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .45 Si .30 Cr 17.00 Mo .50

154 CM Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Mn .50 Si .30 Cr 14.00 Mo 4.00

CPM S30V Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.45 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 14.00 Va 4.00 Mo 2.00

CPM 154CM Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Mn .50 Si .30 Cr 14.00 Mo 2.00

410 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .15 max Mn 1.00 max Si 1.00 max Cr 11.50-13.50 Ni 8.00-10.00

416 Stainless
Typical Chemistry: C .15 max Mn 1.25 max Si 1.10 max Cr 12.00-14.00

Tool Steels
D-2 Tool Steel
Flat Gound
Typical Chemistry:C 1.50 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 12.00 Va .95 Mo .90

O-1 Tool Steel
Precision Ground
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .60 Si .30 Cr 5.20 Va .30 Mo 1.10

Alloys & Others
8670M (L-6 Alternative)
Typical Chemistry: C .64-.75 Mn .40-.60 Si .25 Ni .70-1.0 Mo .05-.10

15 N 20
Typical Chemistry: C .75 Mn .75 Si .25 Ni 1.5

52100
Typical Chemistry: C 1.02 Mn .36 Si .25 Cr 1.46

A203E Alloy
Typical Chemistry: C .09 Mn .64 Si .34 Ni 3.58 Cr .030 Mo .010
Stock Gauges: .250"

Spring Steels
HR 1075/1080
Typical Chemistry: C .70/.88 Mn .40/.90

HR 1095
Typical Chemistry: C .90/1.04 Mn .60/.90

CRA 1095
Typical Chemistry: C .90/1.04 Mn .60/.90

HR 5160
Typical Chemistry: C .60 Mn .85 P .035 max S .040 max

Yes, I know these steels aren't always exactly the same, but as noted
above, this is a starting point, not the final HT solution.
Click to expand...


Zaph1
your chemistry for O-1 is NOT typical chromium is .5% and not 5.2% and it has tungsten at about .5% as well, not molybdmnem. The alloy you describe her as O-1 is not, its actually closer to A-2 than O-1.
Also 410 contains no nickel.
Thanks,
Del
 
Well, I'll be the dissenting voice. There can easily be a short list of standard heat treatments for the majority of blades and steels. Sure, you can have a range of temps for heating and tempering as well as a range of quench mediums and temps, but there is always a standard from which deviations will occur.

It's funny how we get caught up in the specific heat treatments for X type of knife or Y application. How many people are specifying to Paul Bos or Peters or whomever that they need X heat treatment style because they want Y results? Approximately none? You might be asking for a target RC, or maybe if you're a "power user" you're asking for high or low heat tempering, but that's about it.

How specialized are the heat treatments when they're being done with an oxy-aceteline torch, a bucket of turkey grease and a toaster oven? There are so very few makers out there who are actually leveraging heat treating science and technology to the max, so I think it's kind of silly that we think that anyone but an ultra-small minority of makers will actually gain something from tailored heat treating. Then they get to send their knives out to someone who can't tell the difference anyways :cool:
 
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