Westinghouse Micarta, Ivorite, other vintage phenolics, etc.

[javand]

Hey guys, wanted to start a thread discussing some of these old phenolics, which I know have been talked about in the past, but I'm only just now starting to educate myself. Don Hanson's recent "Butterscotch" micarta forays, got me interested in the material. I've used some "Antique Ivory" westinghouse stuff not too long ago, that I acquired from Alpha I think at Blade a couple of years ago, but thus far that's all I've played with.

I'm making a lot of slipjoints these days, and for whatever reason, I just don't care for wood on them. Fossil ivory pickings have been slim the last couple years, probably only going to get slimmer, although I use it, pearl, or stag for most knives. All of these supplies are dwindling. Jigged bone is a good alternative I guess, although I haven't settled on what I like. The other option, is phenolics, but of course, it's gotta be rare and different. Right?


I tracked down Don's source for the Butterscotch (thanks John!), got some otw. I also found some expensive, but I believe genuine gorgeous blue Westinghouse Ivorite, and I just ordered some more of what I believed to be Westinghouse ivory paper micarta, but it's really a tan/beige color as opposed to the white with yellowed skin, that I'm used to. It actually looks just like the Ivorite in "texture". It's definitely not the standard "paper" micarta that's available. I'm wondering if it's from "unbleached" paper micarta, which I know westinghouse produced at one point. Anybody have any info they'd like to share? Input on the genuineness of this stuff? (Will post a pic if requested). I put in some request for info from the seller, to see if they have photos of any tags or labels, etc. The guy I got the blue Ivorite, does have legit westinghouse labels on the original stock.


I also picked up some old canvas micarta from Ray Kirk (you out there Ray?) at Tannehill this year, it's incredibly dense stuff, that looks different from what's available these days also.


What else is out there? Who's got sources? Who has some info or history on this stuff?

 

[javand]

Actually looking at this other stuff in better light, it's pretty much a color match for the internal color of the known antique stuff I've got, but it hasn't got any yellowing on the outside.


I'll be curious to see if it starts to color, as it's been sawed on three sides and one side is the original finish, but I know they were supplied with a plastic film cover in sheet form originally.

 

[javand]

I posted this here instead of shop talk because I know a bunch of collectors are as educated or more so than the makers.


Here's some material I got from a very old transformer "terminal plate", it's an odd shaped part, with large copper terminal lugs attached through holes in the sheet. I found it from some junker, and I though it was useless, because the outside and edges were "rotted", but once i cut into it, I started to hit a hard core, and this is what I found:

 

[snippy]

And even more of us want to learn! Great idea. These old micartas and phenolics are fascinating.

Eric

 

[Don Hanson III]

Javan, that old transformer stuff looks good man. Post pics of the other stuff ya got.

 

[javand]

Ok here goes:

This is one of two different pieces I got from Ray Kirk, first sheet was about 3/16" thick, the next is 0.650":

This is the stuff I just got, is *supposed* to be legit westinghouse stuff, but I'm not certain it is, it's pretty beige colored:

Then this is Westinghouse Blue Ivorite, which I believe to be legit. I paid good money for this from a reputable source AFAIK:

Here's a photo of knives (Don Carlos Adrade, California Custom Knives, not mine) made from the same material, hope they don't mind me linking, but the maker has a knifemaker membership here:

 

[John L]

Catalin, an early plastic is found on vases, desk sets, trays, juke box trim, etc. The best stuff come from Rumania for some odd reason. If you are careful in peining the stuff it holds up well. It comes in reds and oranges, greens and olives, black, yellow and golds, and a couple of blues. Perhaps in other colors but this is what I have seen. If careful you can buy it quite cheaply on fleabay. Study the pictures and measurements to make sure it will work for your scale size requirements. It is much better looking than the modern swirly plastics.
If you buy thick Micartas cutting from the edges rather than using the face for the scale face gives you a completely different look. Some call it end cut, quarter cut, edge cut. Canvas and linen are also very different looking in this cut. Paper...not too good.
There are many other materials to use such as nylons as long as you are very careful not to get too hot and it smears. Tennite is a good handle material. I have some yellowish material that looks like it was extruded in sheets and as the sheet was pushed out of mold it kind of came in sputters and spurts. The color changes in the starts and stops. Interesting stuff but again you must use very sharp belts and not get it the least bit hot.
Heat is the devil on many if not all handle materials. Elephant ivory perhaps the worst of the natural materials and nylons the worst of the man made materials. Keep buffing to a minimum. As Rick Menefee says....."just sand to 5000 and forget about buffing altogether".....! Easier said than done me thinks!

 

[javand]

Thanks for chiming in John!


Speaking of Catalin: check out this pipe on ebay, as an example. Pretty cool stuff! http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-BAKELIT...622?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee38cb756

 

[DOWELLKNIVES]

My favorite is barbwire micarta. Sadly I cant find anymore.

 

[M.FREEZE]

I believe some of the more "standard" looking paper and canvas varieties were originally used in industrial applications. You will often find that there is a wide spectrum of colors when discussing one specific type of Westinghouse Micarta. Later on, the Ivorite batches were produced for more decorative applications, and also were better for scrimshaw. Westinghouse Micarta hasn't been produced since 1995, when it sold to International Paper. A lot of the colors can be found today, but the quality and character isn't there. This is especially evident in canvas phenolics.

Here is some Westinghouse Blue Ivorite and Brown Ivorite with White Lines
Here is some Westinghouse White Linen with a double Red Line
Here is some Canvas (probably non Westinghouse) in a few colors

 

[javand]

Dowell, I've never seen that material but DAMN it's nice looking! Anybody have a line on some of that, let us know!

 

[Murray White]

In the 1980's Micarta and particularly "white" micarta was popular because it was inexpensive to be used by the maker and offered a nice material for scrimshanders to work with. Because after a period of time it became drastically discolored it lost favor and even the greens and maroons were not used so much and most collectors today would prefer other handle materials.

Here is a piece by Peter Willis that was added to our collection in 1981 and while it is nicely colored in the photo, I suspect it might have been my error in post production as I decided to look at where it is now stored (a drawer with other Canadian makers knives) and the discoloring is much less and the handle has variations as it is rotated but seems to be more yellow.

a second piece is done by Wolfe as an early knife and was a birthday present to my wife and the scrim is done by Charles Hargraves in a similar time period.

The current color of the micarta is darker on the scrimmed side than on the reverse which is to be expected as that side would be exposed to the light more.

Unfortunately, over time lots of materials do change due to light but ivory micarta is one material which is more prone than others and many collectors including myself likely would not select it to be a material chosen for a knife today.

 

[M.FREEZE]

Here is an example of an industrial application. This is a pulley for an airplane. This particular pulley is pre-WWII. The material of the center hub determines pre/post WWII. Prior to 1941/1942 the center hub was brass. Post WWII it was not brass.

 

[javand]

Interesting perspective Murray, and definitely understandable.

Ironically for me as a maker, the color evolution over time is the aspect that attracts me the most. I love the color that the antique westinghouse ivory micarta takes on, just as I love the yellow patina that real ivory (interior mammoth especially) develops after handling and exposure to light. This is one of the appeals of working with various materials, understanding these characteristics.

In fact, most natural materials I've worked with exhibit these characteristics. Ivory changes color and moves (blues turn green, whites turn yellow, etc), Ironwood darkens (such that I only buy the lightest colored examples), and on and on. Although I admit, one of the reasons I love pearl is that it is so stable and consistent. Overall though, knowing these traits and making considerations for them, are part of the art IMHO.


If you can expect a certain color evolution, aesthetically, you should plan for that. If I use antique ivory micarta for example, I'd consider the eventual color to be the true expression of the aesthetic, and ultimately not complete until such point.

 

[Tad Lynch]

Here's some older stuff I bought off a guy. It has a more coarse weave than what you see usually. Salvaged it out of a factory that did work for G.E. according to him. I kinda liked it so I bought all he had. Don't really know how old it is but its cool stuff.

Tad

 

[D.Crawford]

Have you checked out the "antique linear micarta" from Sheffield Supply? They say they have it made up special as a reproduction of the old material.

 

[Mecha]

If you can expect a certain color evolution, aesthetically, you should plan for that. If I use antique ivory micarta for example, I'd consider the eventual color to be the true expression of the aesthetic, and ultimately not complete until such point.

That's one of my favorite things about copper.

Here's a couple of neat thick blocks, the gentleman who had them said they were, "old Westinghouse micarta."

 

[Lorien]

what are the concerns, typically, of using more or less unknown material? By that I mean material whose constituents aren't listed.
would there be any dangerous ingredients, say like asbestos or somesuch, in some of these types of composites?

 

[M.FREEZE]

what are the concerns, typically, of using more or less unknown material? By that I mean material whose constituents aren't listed.
would there be any dangerous ingredients, say like asbestos or somesuch, in some of these types of composites?

The concern over asbestos has been discussed many times. I have been told and have read that the only Micarta that contained asbestos was the "antique gold micarta". This color is sometimes confused with aged or yellowed Ivory Paper Micarta. I believe that the "antique gold micarta" containing asbestos was produced pre 1979. The Ivorite batches that were produced circa 1980's that were for decorative purposes didn't contain asbestos.

Even if asbestos isn't in the material you are working with, I'm sure there are other "not so good" chemicals in all synthetic materials.

 

[Infamous.blades]

what are the concerns, typically, of using more or less unknown material? By that I mean material whose constituents aren't listed.
would there be any dangerous ingredients, say like asbestos or somesuch, in some of these types of composites?

Some of these samples look like fire hose textile and old one having azbestos.
Here I got some example phenolic micarta but we call them Textolite, darker one is old one more than 30. yrs. and lighter is update one.

and one my frend make some handle from darker one