What about the Florida issue
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CJ Buck
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Cary,
There was a meeting at the recent blade show where AKTI was given a little education. We were led to believe that the knife community needed to lay low and let this court case pass so all could get back to normal in florida. We were shown a flyer and a lawyer in florida, who is also a knife collector, shared his perceptions that this was serious and not going away. He also advised folks at this meeting not to sell or display any automatics or they might be confiscated.
AKTI will be the political action committee serving as the figurehead of a team to clarify florida's definition of switchblade/ballistic knife. Our timeline is about 15 months and and $50k in fundraising will be involved.
AKTI is donating money and collecting earmarked donations into a fund for this effort.
We determined to keep tactics and strategies confidential and smoothly get this done.
I hope I haven't been too cryptic here and when I get approval to share more information I will post it.
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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003
There was a meeting at the recent blade show where AKTI was given a little education. We were led to believe that the knife community needed to lay low and let this court case pass so all could get back to normal in florida. We were shown a flyer and a lawyer in florida, who is also a knife collector, shared his perceptions that this was serious and not going away. He also advised folks at this meeting not to sell or display any automatics or they might be confiscated.
AKTI will be the political action committee serving as the figurehead of a team to clarify florida's definition of switchblade/ballistic knife. Our timeline is about 15 months and and $50k in fundraising will be involved.
AKTI is donating money and collecting earmarked donations into a fund for this effort.
We determined to keep tactics and strategies confidential and smoothly get this done.
I hope I haven't been too cryptic here and when I get approval to share more information I will post it.
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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003
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<cynical> Hmmm...so if things go like they did in California then we can expect the AKTI to help draft a new law that will only ban "some" switchblades. </cynical>
[This message has been edited by Mr E Blackadder (edited 06-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mr E Blackadder (edited 06-18-2001).]
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Why keep Ballistic Knives illegal? Why declare them illegal to begin with? It was all based on paranoia from Law Enforcement and it should be overturned anyway...
Having said that, I think that the First Phase should be clearly defining what a Ballistic Knife is, what a Side-Opening Switchblade is, what a Front Opening [Out The Front=OTF] Switchblade is, and the difference between the coil springs, leaf springs and other sorts of springs and devices and that should set the record straight in Florida. Then it can clearly be seen that the Judge was acting on a dislike of Switchblades and Legislating from the Bench. In so doing, making many people criminals overnight because there was no provision for turning them in [not that I think anyone should] and no Provision for Collectors, making this an ex post facto law, after the fact, and therefore, un-Constitutional on its' face.
As for the Second Phase, no one is going to spend $5,000.00 on overturning a Federal or State decision on The Ballistic Knife. AKTI won't do it, and no one will.
HOWEVER...
DOES EVERYONE NOW SEE CLEARLY THE DANGER IN ALLOWING KNIFE LAWS TO BE PASSED TO BEGIN WITH? LAWS THAT ARE BORN OUT OF IGNORANCE, HYSTERIA AND IRRATIONAL FEAR? IF THE BALLISTIC KNIFE LAW HAD BEEN FOUGHT TO BEGIN WITH, THERE WOULD BE NO LAW IN FLORIDA FOR THE JUDGE TO ABUSE AND DECLARE A WHOLE OTHER GENRE OF KNIFE TO BE BANNED.
I KNOW THERE WAS NO AKTI BACK THEN, BUT THE POINT IS, WE SHOULD LEARN FROM THIS MISTAKE AND NOT REPEAT IT. ANYTIME YOU OPEN A DOOR, A JUDGE CAN ARBITRARILY BAN SOMETHING OUT OF IGNORANCE OR PREJUDICE. THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN FLORIDA.
As for a Ballistic Knife, I couldn't care less about them, but the point is made. It was a Gateway that allowed a Judge to ban other knives, wasn't it?
The Ballistic Knife Law in Florida should be attacked as another ex post facto law, you cannot make people criminals overnight and with no provision for Collectors, that is precisely what Florida did, the Federal Government and many other States did. If there is no provision for you owning something and they ban it, from the moment the Bill becomes the Force of Law, you are a criminal. Even if you were taking that very knife to the dump to dispose of it yourself so no child could find it, etc., and you were pulled over for speeding, etc., you could be arrested for it, simply because the State or Federal Government has banned it.
That is but one reason ex post facto laws are un-Constitutional.
The State of Florida did not ban Archery Equipment, and while it is true that the Ballistic Knife is more concealable than a Bow and Arrow or a Crossbow, a Pistol Crossbow is just a bit larger and could conceivably be concealed under a large jacket.
They are not banned in Florida. And they are far more lethal, even the lowly Pistol Crossbow, much more lethal than a Ballistic Knife.
Furthermore, the law in Florida declared a knife propelled as a Projectile to be banned, a side or front opening Switchblade is not a Projectile Weapon. Added to which, the State of Florida did not ban Spearguns, even though the letter of the law on the Ballistic Knife would ban a Speargun before any rational, intelligent human being could apply it to any form of Switchblade knife.
Why? The Florida Law on Ballistic Knives clearly states, a knife propelled by spring, elastomer or compressed air/gas as being banned. Which happens to be the three ways a Speargun can be powered and have been for decades. If the Switchblade is banned in Florida under the Ballistic Knife Law, common sense would dictate that the Speargun be banned and smaller Spear Guns ARE concealable as they have no limbs as a Crossbow does. And, Spearguns ARE more lethal, even out of the water, more so than a Ballistic Knife.
See how Florida's Tourist Industry would like to have that bomb dropped on them, that if you own a Speargun because it propels a SPIKE PROJECTILE, and there is no provision for Collectors, that you are a criminal overnight.
Something has to be said about Law Enforcement and the hysteria and crisis creators. There is a Constitution in this Country. The Constitution does not care one, tiny, little bit about altruism. The Constitution is there to prevent Tyrannical Government. It is there to prevent a Police State. Whenever Law Enforcement starts complaining that something should be banned and the Constitution is then ignored and ex post facto laws are created that have no practical purpose with the exception of cow-towing to the paranoia that the media and certain, select individuals can create, then you are living in a Police State.
The Constitution does not care about irrational and illogical attitudes and opinions, it is what it is and I think it is about time we start living by it again before this Grand Experiment in Liberty dies...
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Usual Suspect
Ipsa scientia potestas est aut disce aut discede
Some of my Knives and other neat things
Having said that, I think that the First Phase should be clearly defining what a Ballistic Knife is, what a Side-Opening Switchblade is, what a Front Opening [Out The Front=OTF] Switchblade is, and the difference between the coil springs, leaf springs and other sorts of springs and devices and that should set the record straight in Florida. Then it can clearly be seen that the Judge was acting on a dislike of Switchblades and Legislating from the Bench. In so doing, making many people criminals overnight because there was no provision for turning them in [not that I think anyone should] and no Provision for Collectors, making this an ex post facto law, after the fact, and therefore, un-Constitutional on its' face.
As for the Second Phase, no one is going to spend $5,000.00 on overturning a Federal or State decision on The Ballistic Knife. AKTI won't do it, and no one will.
HOWEVER...
DOES EVERYONE NOW SEE CLEARLY THE DANGER IN ALLOWING KNIFE LAWS TO BE PASSED TO BEGIN WITH? LAWS THAT ARE BORN OUT OF IGNORANCE, HYSTERIA AND IRRATIONAL FEAR? IF THE BALLISTIC KNIFE LAW HAD BEEN FOUGHT TO BEGIN WITH, THERE WOULD BE NO LAW IN FLORIDA FOR THE JUDGE TO ABUSE AND DECLARE A WHOLE OTHER GENRE OF KNIFE TO BE BANNED.
I KNOW THERE WAS NO AKTI BACK THEN, BUT THE POINT IS, WE SHOULD LEARN FROM THIS MISTAKE AND NOT REPEAT IT. ANYTIME YOU OPEN A DOOR, A JUDGE CAN ARBITRARILY BAN SOMETHING OUT OF IGNORANCE OR PREJUDICE. THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN FLORIDA.
As for a Ballistic Knife, I couldn't care less about them, but the point is made. It was a Gateway that allowed a Judge to ban other knives, wasn't it?
The Ballistic Knife Law in Florida should be attacked as another ex post facto law, you cannot make people criminals overnight and with no provision for Collectors, that is precisely what Florida did, the Federal Government and many other States did. If there is no provision for you owning something and they ban it, from the moment the Bill becomes the Force of Law, you are a criminal. Even if you were taking that very knife to the dump to dispose of it yourself so no child could find it, etc., and you were pulled over for speeding, etc., you could be arrested for it, simply because the State or Federal Government has banned it.
That is but one reason ex post facto laws are un-Constitutional.
The State of Florida did not ban Archery Equipment, and while it is true that the Ballistic Knife is more concealable than a Bow and Arrow or a Crossbow, a Pistol Crossbow is just a bit larger and could conceivably be concealed under a large jacket.
They are not banned in Florida. And they are far more lethal, even the lowly Pistol Crossbow, much more lethal than a Ballistic Knife.
Furthermore, the law in Florida declared a knife propelled as a Projectile to be banned, a side or front opening Switchblade is not a Projectile Weapon. Added to which, the State of Florida did not ban Spearguns, even though the letter of the law on the Ballistic Knife would ban a Speargun before any rational, intelligent human being could apply it to any form of Switchblade knife.
Why? The Florida Law on Ballistic Knives clearly states, a knife propelled by spring, elastomer or compressed air/gas as being banned. Which happens to be the three ways a Speargun can be powered and have been for decades. If the Switchblade is banned in Florida under the Ballistic Knife Law, common sense would dictate that the Speargun be banned and smaller Spear Guns ARE concealable as they have no limbs as a Crossbow does. And, Spearguns ARE more lethal, even out of the water, more so than a Ballistic Knife.
See how Florida's Tourist Industry would like to have that bomb dropped on them, that if you own a Speargun because it propels a SPIKE PROJECTILE, and there is no provision for Collectors, that you are a criminal overnight.
Something has to be said about Law Enforcement and the hysteria and crisis creators. There is a Constitution in this Country. The Constitution does not care one, tiny, little bit about altruism. The Constitution is there to prevent Tyrannical Government. It is there to prevent a Police State. Whenever Law Enforcement starts complaining that something should be banned and the Constitution is then ignored and ex post facto laws are created that have no practical purpose with the exception of cow-towing to the paranoia that the media and certain, select individuals can create, then you are living in a Police State.
The Constitution does not care about irrational and illogical attitudes and opinions, it is what it is and I think it is about time we start living by it again before this Grand Experiment in Liberty dies...
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Usual Suspect
Ipsa scientia potestas est aut disce aut discede
Some of my Knives and other neat things
Does anybody know of a knife organization that will actually do something about knife laws. I joined AKTI, but after reading this and other threads, I think I made a mistake. Is there someone out there that can help me?
I want to be able to carry a knife. I s that to much to ask!
I want to be able to carry a knife. I s that to much to ask!
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Don is totally right. If any knife law is ok, then it's a very small step before another is ok, and another, etc. The mess we're in in CA wouldn't be happening if there wasn't an unconstitutional switchblade law to amend to begin with. If any knife legislation is ok, then all knife legislation is ok. I fully agree that we're not safe from a tyrannical oppressive unconstitutional government until all carryable (not talkin' nukes or tanks here) weapons laws are eliminated.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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This space for rent.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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This space for rent.
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Did you understand a single thing I wrote?
The Ballistic Knife is not going to perform as was advertised on Soft Body Armor that Police Officers wear, on a reliable basis. You would be hard pressed to get the thing to stick at 15 feet in any medium, let alone the advertised 30 feet and penetrating Kevlar too.
It is not about what I like, you like, how well it was made, or WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.
That is COSMETIC, that's why you have a Federal Government thinks that a Ruger Mini-14, a Semiautomatic, 5.56X45mm Caliber Carbine stock from the Gun Store of your choice is not a so-called, "Assault Weapon," but a Colt, Olympic Arms or Bushmaster AR-15 is, simply because it has a pistol grip, a bayonet lug and a flash hider.
Read the post again, I think the Ballistic Knife Law should be overturned because it is an ex post facto law and being such, is un-Constitutional.
Furthermore, it was a law born out of a hysteria. The truth of the matter is, the knife never performed as advertised in any medium, let alone having the ability to go through Soft Body Armor.
Oh...and by the way, I saw a piece of video when I was a teenager on the local news in Maryland when Maryland banned them in the 1980s, the knife will go into a Bullet-Resistant Vest, but it will not do so reliably and at the distance you would have to fire it, it is a pointless argument as the knife would be a more lethal instrument in your hand, used manually, rather than fired ONCE.
I guarantee you at 10 feet, that knife will not penetrate Soft Body Armor if you based it on "One Shot" scenarios which is the way it would be used on the street, I'll bet it would not penetrate to any degree at 10 feet, 50% of the time.
When a piece of video is shot to demonize something, they don't have to show you the 37 times it took to get it to stick ONCE. They just show the clip where it did.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 06-18-2001).]
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Correct.
In Florida, you see ONE INDIVIDUAL, a "Judge," misinterpret a law based clearly on Ballistic Knives, to include NON-PROJECTILE KNIVES.
In California, the Original Law was based on Switchblades [spring-powered] and Gravity Knives [Self-explanatory].
Just because a knife can be "flicked" open does not make it a "Gravity Knife."
A Gravity Knife is a specific type of knife, the Gravity Knife has a button or lever that once depressed, the knife can be "flicked" open. Think of it as a Switchblade without the spring. Although there were some side-opening Gravity Knives, the vast majority of them were Out The Front openers.
A button or lever was depressed and the knife directed towards the ground and the blade dropped by force of Gravity, the lever was then moved to the locked position or the button released to lock the blade...
That is NOT a knife that has a Thumb HOLE, STUD or DISC, PERIOD.
It is not a Balisong [Butterfly] Knife either.
So, in California and many States, you see the same thing as in Florida...
Even though a One Hand Opening Knife utilizing hole, stud or disc, is clearly not a Gravity Knife unless you re-define what a Gravity Knife is, they are saying they are and banning them and that would have never happened except for the fact the State(s) in question passed a stupid law to begin with.
Exactly what happened in Florida.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 06-18-2001).]
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I just wanted to highlight the nature of incremental criminalization of knives. The story of the Bali-song knife in California is a frightening example of how quickly we can fall off the cliff edge. The frist balisong boon occured in California during the late seventies and early eighties. FMA was also seeing a growth spurt during these years, The Stockton and Sacramento areas were home to a few FMA schools.
A few MA movies featured the Bali as a BG knife. Soon many kids were flippin' their cheap butterflys. Complaints arose from parents, not from assaults, but from kids cutting themselves. School and Law enforcement authorities responded with the standard "call for a ban", and petitioned the Attorney General office's on "what could be done". The AG's response was to define the Bailsong style knife as a "gravity knife" and illegal under current statue, making it a felony to possess or transfer.
This policy defintion of "gravity knife" did not stand under judicial review. Next came the State Legislative Houses, where the argument was made that there was a 'loophole' in the dangerous weapons statute, and of course, "Something must be done", to prevent 'criminals' from using this loophole. Ignoring the tacit fact the edge weapons of the street thug was the kitchen knife and sharpened screwdriver; All the lawmakers knees jerked in unison, and the penal code was amended to include by name, the 'butterfly knife'.
The fact that it was Hollywood and band-aids that drove the hysteria escaped our lawmakers.
I remember thinking as I disposed of by Balisong collection; Oh! well, "I'll find other cool knives to collect and enjoy."
But I was young, inexperienced, and I believed goverment knew what was best for the poeple.
Where will we be within ten more years of incremental errosion of liberties?
-Seth
A few MA movies featured the Bali as a BG knife. Soon many kids were flippin' their cheap butterflys. Complaints arose from parents, not from assaults, but from kids cutting themselves. School and Law enforcement authorities responded with the standard "call for a ban", and petitioned the Attorney General office's on "what could be done". The AG's response was to define the Bailsong style knife as a "gravity knife" and illegal under current statue, making it a felony to possess or transfer.
This policy defintion of "gravity knife" did not stand under judicial review. Next came the State Legislative Houses, where the argument was made that there was a 'loophole' in the dangerous weapons statute, and of course, "Something must be done", to prevent 'criminals' from using this loophole. Ignoring the tacit fact the edge weapons of the street thug was the kitchen knife and sharpened screwdriver; All the lawmakers knees jerked in unison, and the penal code was amended to include by name, the 'butterfly knife'.
The fact that it was Hollywood and band-aids that drove the hysteria escaped our lawmakers.
I remember thinking as I disposed of by Balisong collection; Oh! well, "I'll find other cool knives to collect and enjoy."
But I was young, inexperienced, and I believed goverment knew what was best for the poeple.
Where will we be within ten more years of incremental errosion of liberties?
-Seth
CJ Buck
Moderator
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Just a quick addition here.
In our recent hearings up in california law enforcement mentioned the "menacing aspect" of certain knives. That was in a discussion on butterfly knives. Any law enforcement care to comment on the feeling that some knives are menacing in how they open and therefore get special attention?
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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003
In our recent hearings up in california law enforcement mentioned the "menacing aspect" of certain knives. That was in a discussion on butterfly knives. Any law enforcement care to comment on the feeling that some knives are menacing in how they open and therefore get special attention?
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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003
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ANYTHING in the hands of a BG can be "menacing!"
But in MY hands, knives are cute and cuddly. In the display cases, they are attractive and eager to come out to play.
"Politicians who think otherwise are idiotic, intolerant bigots who are against the rainbow diversity of useful inanimate objects!"
Nah, even if we put it in their own PC language, they still wouldn't understand.
Tyrants and idiots should be banned.
Karl
But in MY hands, knives are cute and cuddly. In the display cases, they are attractive and eager to come out to play.
"Politicians who think otherwise are idiotic, intolerant bigots who are against the rainbow diversity of useful inanimate objects!"
Nah, even if we put it in their own PC language, they still wouldn't understand.
Tyrants and idiots should be banned.
Karl
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I'd love to know what they mean by "menacing aspect" and why they are more menaced by a balisong than my Sebenza for example. Are professional LEO's really intimidated by some punk flipping a balisong around?
Its like someone posted in another thread about airport security not allowing a knife because it "looks dangerous".
Its the old "assault weapons" arguement all over again. Sheeple are so influenced by the entertainment industry that knife and gun grabbers know that if they can attach even fictitious violent images to something that they can get a measure of public support to ban them.
Its like someone posted in another thread about airport security not allowing a knife because it "looks dangerous".
Its the old "assault weapons" arguement all over again. Sheeple are so influenced by the entertainment industry that knife and gun grabbers know that if they can attach even fictitious violent images to something that they can get a measure of public support to ban them.
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This is an OTF, is it really that menacing?
CJ Buck
Moderator
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too funny
I just mentioned that concept of Menacing cause I heard it a few times in the assembly committee hearing, both from law enforcement as well as an assemblyman committee member. Neither were intimidated by knives but were protecting the innocent public...
AKTI will be discussing butterflies in our next board meeting for a decision if we should pursue this now or focus on closure in new york or florida.
I just mentioned that concept of Menacing cause I heard it a few times in the assembly committee hearing, both from law enforcement as well as an assemblyman committee member. Neither were intimidated by knives but were protecting the innocent public...
AKTI will be discussing butterflies in our next board meeting for a decision if we should pursue this now or focus on closure in new york or florida.
BF has, in a short period of time, made me more aware of this threat to freedom by knife laws.
I certainly see many posts I agree with, and the florida law is news to me, and I'm glad I am aware of it and the fight going on there.
DonRearic, whenI was reading through your material I noted:
and couldn't help but think one of these people will get the idea to re-define gravity through legislation.
Any limits on knives are limits on personal freedom. The idea the country was founded on centered around keeping government contained and out of people's personal lives. Respect for individual rights is paramount.
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wkinma@hushmail.com
I certainly see many posts I agree with, and the florida law is news to me, and I'm glad I am aware of it and the fight going on there.
DonRearic, whenI was reading through your material I noted:
and couldn't help but think one of these people will get the idea to re-define gravity through legislation.
Any limits on knives are limits on personal freedom. The idea the country was founded on centered around keeping government contained and out of people's personal lives. Respect for individual rights is paramount.
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wkinma@hushmail.com