What constitutes a dagger?

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Punisherprice

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This is a Microtech Ultratech I was eyeballing for a while. Looks cool as hell, and I like serrations for cutting zip ties and other hellishly hard things to cut. It does have a dagger style blade, but also has serrations. From what I know, daggers are slender and are mostly double edged and thin so they can slide through tissue easier. No serrations. And usually a crossguard or some sort of guard near the tang.

In a legality issue, if I had this bad boy, and in my state OTFs are legally good to go, would a LEO consider this a dagger? I know some states lump automatics into daggers in general.

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Oops, kinda new to the page and didn't realize there was a knife law category. MODERATORS : don't send me to purgatory.

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The legal definition of a "dagger" can vary from one jurisdiction to the other, and such legal definitions do not always match the Webster's Dictionary definition, or what the average person considers to be a "dagger".

Here in my state of California, "dirks" and "daggers" are legally defined as "a knife or other instrument with or without a hand guard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon" (CA penal code 16470). And here in California that includes ANY pointy, sturdy fixed-blade, ANY locking folder with the blade open, as well as things like ice picks, sharpened screwdrivers, etc.

Fortunately here in California such things are perfectly legal to own, and carry. Only the concealed carry of such items is illegal here.
 
California has some sad laws, Nevada passed a law to allow switchblade switchblade year or two back. I was originally from California before moving to Vegas. Some of their laws are bogus.

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A dagger in nevada is a short weapon used for thrusting and stabbing . One most note if the knife has handguards and a blade that locks into place .(seriously that's the law)

Says they are illegal to conceal carry.
 
Daggers in Texas are defined as double edged blades, and are illegal to carry no matter their size.
 
The Texas double edged definition fits my personal definition of a dagger. So, to me, that's a dagger. But it is a legal thing, and I suggest careful review of Nevada law in terms of ownership and carry.
 
If its design promotes stabbing it is a dagger. As far as the legal definition, that can vary, but if it's double edged, it's definitely designed for stabbing and is a dagger. If it has no edge, but is designed for stabbing, it's a dagger.
 
We're not lawyers, my friend. Call your local sheriff and ask directly. That's how I found out that Tulsa's knife laws are basically non-existent outside of "daggers, dirks, bowies, and sword canes" all of which are being removed with Oklahoma Senate Bill 1159. Ask your local law enforcement how the law is enforced de facto. You might be within your rights de jure, but you'd still be at risk of losing your knife, temporarily at best, if you run into an officer who is not so well-versed in the law.

Even with the changing laws where I live, I'm still sticking to relatively cheap double-edged knives because I know I'm at risk of confiscation at any time for aforementioned reasons. Laws change, but general knowledge is not so quick to catch up. (Most people in my state seem to think that there's some sort of law relating blade size to the palm of your hand, which is absolute nonsense.)
 
I'm actually stationed in North Carolina now. Moved from cali, to Nevada, to North Carolina...

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Yes, a LEO would call that a dagger. A separate thing from an OTF.

As generally accepted, a dagger is double edged, usually a derivative of the stiletto-type blade profile. Whether it has a guard or not doesn't matter.
 
killgar said:
The legal definition of a "dagger" can vary from one jurisdiction to the other, and such legal definitions do not always match the Webster's Dictionary definition, or what the average person considers to be a "dagger".

Here in my state of California, "dirks" and "daggers" are legally defined as "a knife or other instrument with or without a hand guard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon" (CA penal code 16470). And here in California that includes ANY pointy, sturdy fixed-blade, ANY locking folder with the blade open, as well as things like ice picks, sharpened screwdrivers, etc.

Fortunately here in California such things are perfectly legal to own, and carry. Only the concealed carry of such items is illegal here.
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There is currently pending before the California Supreme Court a case in which a jury convicted a guy of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger in violation of Penal Code § 21310 for having a non-locking Swiss Army Knife opened in his pocket. The appellate court reversed the conviction on the grounds that non-locking knives are pretty clearly exempt from the definition of "dirk" and dagger" in the code, which is as follows:

"As used in this part, “dirk” or “dagger” means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 21510, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position." (Penal Code § 16470.)

It will be interesting to see what the California Supreme Court does with the case.
 
The CA law makes a screwdriver a dagger since is "instrument...capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon". But then more people are stabbed with screwdrivers than Cold Steel knives :)
 
brownshoe said:
The CA law makes a screwdriver a dagger since is "instrument...capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon". But then more people are stabbed with screwdrivers than Cold Steel knives :)
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Not necessarily. There is a lot of case law in California regarding under what circumstances an ordinary object with legitimate use can be defined as a weapon. Like for example- if the item is modified so as to make it a more effective weapon (like sharpening the tip of a screwdriver to a fine point).

Also, in order to obtain a sustainable conviction for carrying a concealed dirk or dagger, among other things, the prosecutor has to prove that either the individual was carrying the item as a weapon, or that they knew it could be used as a weapon. Which is often made easier by individuals who admit to the cops that they were carrying the item "for self-defense", or who simply acknowledge to the officer that they knew it could be used as a weapon (Cop: "You know that can be used as a weapon right?", Person: "Yes". That "yes" can be used by a prosecutor as an admission of guilt that the officer will testify to in court).

There are provisions in California law (People v Aubrey, People v Oskins) that specifically protect people who are caught carrying items that can be used as stabbing weapons, but who were doing so innocently, including the concealed carry of fixed-blade knives. To use the screwdriver as an example, if the cops stopped someone for some reason and found a regular, un-sharpened screwdriver concealed on their person, as long as the person did not admit to carrying it as any kind of weapon, and as long as they didn't acknowledge that they knew it could be used as a weapon, then they would not be guilty of a crime because a screwdriver is a legal item with lawful uses.

One relevant case law on this matter is People v Rubacalva. And a few case laws that are referenced in People v Rubalcalva are People v Forrest, People v Barrio, People v Grubbs, People v Aubrey, and People v Oskins.
 
Even if intent makes a difference, you are still arrested and in court. That's why you put your tools in your trunk at night, or better yet leave them home, if you've ever been pinched for burglary.
 
Killgar is spot on in regard to California laws. The OTF posted by the OP is legal to own in California, but would be illegal to carry under our misdemeanor switchblade law. If it were carried concealed with the blade out, it would fall under our felony dagger/dirk law.

It should be noted that the confusion doesn't stop at the state level either. Each district attorney's office in each county might "interpret" the law differently. I know in my county people have been charged with carrying a concealed dagger or dirk for carrying ice picks, nails with a handle attached (for example, tape), or even a kitchen knife if it's concealed and the person acknowledges they are carrying it for possible use as a weapon.
 
My advice. If the law seems a blurred line go by this rule. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" just because I can walk around parts of California with a sword on my back, that's not a very good idea and will get me in trouble despite being allowed to.


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I kinda had the idea that if I was talking to a cop about my knife thats clipped to my pocket, something worse has happened. Most people see a switchblade and go crazy and just say it's illegal. On base, people don't care really. But then again I've never asked the PMO(MPs) about it. As long as you aren't stupid with it, you should be fine.

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