What grit is a Ceramic rod?

J

JoeTarget

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Mar 24, 2018
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Just wondering what grit is an average ceramic rod? Also, any tips on cleaning a rod and getting the metal filings off?
 
simple question simple answer: average 1000 grit (i.e. ceramic is fine .. otherwise why buy)

metal filings deep inside the grid, no chance. but for all superficial metal contamination try Barkeepers Friend. it's slightly but notably more effective than Comet Ajax Ata Etc
 
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If talking about sintered ceramics, the actual grit itself is generally varied due to it aiding in the sintering process and a lot of how sintered ceramics cut is dependent on surface finish, more akin to a file rather than like sandpaper. However, the average bulk grain size is about 3µm.
 
JoeTarget said:
Just wondering what grit is an average ceramic rod? Also, any tips on cleaning a rod and getting the metal filings off?
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That depends, if you mean fine grit only, the makers claim any where from 1000-1500 depending on where you purchase from. Barkeepers friend is as good as any way to clean them, but i implore you, when cleaning them place down some tea towels or such other to place them on, especially in the bottom of the sink. They can roll of the side bench of the sink and break, or if they slip out of your hands while cleaning into the bottom of the sink they will also break, they are very fragile, so be careful when cleaning, using and storing.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
If talking about sintered ceramics, the actual grit itself is generally varied due to it aiding in the sintering process and a lot of how sintered ceramics cut is dependent on surface finish, more akin to a file rather than like sandpaper. However, the average bulk grain size is about 3µm.
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There is definitely a difference in how different ceramics remove metal. I never considered surface finish, but that makes sense. I have an Outdoor Edge ceramic rod with fluting/grooves along its length that leaves a reasonably toothy edge that slices really well, but will still pop hair and slice receipt paper nicely. It's very different from the gray and white Lansky Ceramics, but similar to the ceramics you can get from Ragnar's. It's in a different world than the ultra fine Spyderco, which mostly polishes in my experiment.

Is it possible that the different ceramics have a specific sized grit distributed in a ceramic matrix?
 
At one time, Sal Glesser of Spyderco had mentioned the raw grit used in ALL of their ceramic medium, fine and ultra-fine hones was all single-sourced and all the same size (in 10-15 micron ballpark, IIRC). Only the binders (edited: actually 'carriers'), sintering processes and surface finish of each made the working difference in 'apparent' or 'effective' grit. It's usually not very helpful to base the expected performance on actual grit size in sintered ceramic hones, for this reason.
 
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rhino said:
There is definitely a difference in how different ceramics remove metal. I never considered surface finish, but that makes sense. I have an Outdoor Edge ceramic rod with fluting/grooves along its length that leaves a reasonably toothy edge that slices really well, but will still pop hair and slice receipt paper nicely. It's very different from the gray and white Lansky Ceramics, but similar to the ceramics you can get from Ragnar's. It's in a different world than the ultra fine Spyderco, which mostly polishes in my experiment.

Is it possible that the different ceramics have a specific sized grit distributed in a ceramic matrix?
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You have just described a conventional vitrified bond stone. :D However, if you specifically mean a sintered ceramic, then no, it's simply not possible. It's partly the range of grit size that enables the grains to fuse during sintering and even if it were possible, the fusion of the grains would then render that uniform value meaningless because it would no longer be performing in a way consistent with its grit rating in other stones.

This is part of why grit ratings as a whole are often more trouble than they're worth and are really a poor substitute for giving an idea of what the other equally important qualities of the stone are. Grain size does not, alone, determine the cut rate and polish. It's easier to just surface-dress your stone with cheap lapidary diamond to give it the finish and cutting action you want.

Obsessed with Edges said:
At one time, Sal Glesser of Spyderco had mentioned the raw grit used in ALL of their ceramic medium, fine and ultra-fine hones was all single-sourced and all the same size (in 10-15 micron ballpark, IIRC). Only the binders, sintering processes and surface finish of each made the working difference in 'apparent' or 'effective' grit. It's usually not very helpful to base the performance on actual grit size in sintered ceramic hones, for this reason.
Click to expand...

There are no binders used in sintering, only carriers/sintering aids which only assist the grains in fusing to one another rather than working like a glue or cement holding the grains. But yes the Spyderco stones are 10-15µm base stock according to Sal--I just looked it up and confirmed. My sintered silicon carbide stones are also a maximum grain size of 15µm but have an average grain size down around 3µm. Different materials require different blends and techniques to produce good fusion. But, as mentioned, grit size is a useless measure with sintered ceramics because that's simply not how they function.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
(...)

There are no binders used in sintering, only carriers/sintering aids which only assist the grains in fusing to one another rather than working like a glue or cement holding the grains. But yes the Spyderco stones are 10-15µm base stock according to Sal--I just looked it up and confirmed. My sintered silicon carbide stones are also a maximum grain size of 15µm but have an average grain size down around 3µm. Different materials require different blends and techniques to produce good fusion. But, as mentioned, grit size is a useless measure with sintered ceramics because that's simply not how they function.
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You're right about the 'carriers' used in sintering. I tend to substitute 'binder' for that in my mind, and never seem to remember the 'carrier' term, which I think Sal mentioned specifically in what I'd read over on their forum. I think Spyderco's medium brown/grey uses a different carrier than for the white Fine/UF hones, which I assume(?) also accounts for it's different color as well.
 

rhino said:
I never considered surface finish, but that makes sense.
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The Idahone course ceramic rod, has a lot rougher surface finish feel than their fine ceramic rod. Sorry i stuffed up the reply, nearly double posted.
 
This is a very interesting discussion of ceramic sharpeners. And, yes cudgee they are brittle. I now have several short rods that I keep in my toolbag, in the truck and on my desk at work to touch-up my blades.
 
There is a set of images of a (cheap) ceramic hone surface and the metal swarf part way through this article:
scienceofsharp.com

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1

It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”
scienceofsharp.com scienceofsharp.com

In those images, the size of the metal swarf "smears" are comparable in size to that created by an abrasive hone in the range of 1k grit. Also the surface finish left on the blade is comparable to what we would expect from a 1k stone.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
You have just described a conventional vitrified bond stone. :D However, if you specifically mean a sintered ceramic, then no, it's simply not possible. It's partly the range of grit size that enables the grains to fuse during sintering and even if it were possible, the fusion of the grains would then render that uniform value meaningless because it would no longer be performing in a way consistent with its grit rating in other stones.

This is part of why grit ratings as a whole are often more trouble than they're worth and are really a poor substitute for giving an idea of what the other equally important qualities of the stone are. Grain size does not, alone, determine the cut rate and polish. It's easier to just surface-dress your stone with cheap lapidary diamond to give it the finish and cutting action you want.



There are no binders used in sintering, only carriers/sintering aids which only assist the grains in fusing to one another rather than working like a glue or cement holding the grains. But yes the Spyderco stones are 10-15µm base stock according to Sal--I just looked it up and confirmed. My sintered silicon carbide stones are also a maximum grain size of 15µm but have an average grain size down around 3µm. Different materials require different blends and techniques to produce good fusion. But, as mentioned, grit size is a useless measure with sintered ceramics because that's simply not how they function.
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Which stones do you use?

I think the Cerama Steel that you have on your web site is the same as the Outdoor Edge ceramic rod that I have. It's an excellent sharpening tool.
 
rhino said:
Which stones do you use?

I think the Cerama Steel that you have on your web site is the same as the Outdoor Edge ceramic rod that I have. It's an excellent sharpening tool.
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This fellow. And yes, the Cerama-Steel is the outdoor edge model--that's what they call it. :)

byxco-black-magic-2x4-honing-plate-4.gif
 
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