What is "425 modified stainless"?

Plumberdv

Plumberdv

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Sep 26, 2008
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I just received a 500 Duke LE with smooth buffalo inlay that I bought on Bucks web specials page. Here's the text from the site about it.

"Built special for our Buck Collector's Club 20th Anniversary Celebration, this Duke model, with elegant smooth waterbuffalo horn inlays, has a vintage 440C blade. This is a great addition to any collection."

The COA that came with the knife says it's one of 100 made using a "vintage 1987 blade of 425 modified stainless steel."

I just looked at the 500 spec. sheet on BCCI's web site and it says the 500 had 425M blades from '83 to '93, so I assume that's what mine is and not 440C.

Could some one clue me as to what that steel is? :confused: It does have the 1987 date stamp on it (>), but nothing else but Buck & USA.
Thanks
 
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Hi PBD,

I'm not the blade steel historian that some of the others are. So I'll let them answer your question. The only thing I need is for you to post some photo's of your new "Duke".

jb4570
 
I'll get some pictures of the knife after I get the camera's batteries recharged. They went dead on me while I was taking some pictures of the other new toy I got yesterday.:thumbup:
 

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Plumberdv said:
I'll get some pictures of the knife after I get the camera's batteries recharged. They went dead on me while I was taking some pictures of the other new toy I got yesterday.:thumbup:
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Sweet, I bet set you back a few Bucks.....bucks for Buck knives that is:cool:

jb4570
 
Plumber,I had wondered about that actually being 440C.As another Life Buck member I
know bought a 500 while at the 20yr.reunion and his is 425M steel not 440C.The 425M
blade steel is a good user steel a up grade from 420HC.Buck used it for 13yrs..The Bucks
I carry today are mostly of that steel and I like it.Its strong,cuts well,easy to sharpen a good stainless and tough.Just not as good as those upper end steels.But not bad either.
If you don't like it I'll reimburse you for it and no harm done.DM
 
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jb4570 said:
Sweet, I bet set you back a few Bucks.....bucks for Buck knives that is:cool:

jb4570
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OH yeah it did! I couldn't bring myself to trade in either one of my others, so it was a bunch. Brand new and with the 103 CI kit dealer installed. This sucker is a rocket (for a Harley:)).
 
David Martin said:
Plumber,I had wondered about that actually being 440C.As another Life Buck member I
know bought a 500 while at the 20yr.reunion and his is 425M steel not 440C.The 425M
blade steel is a good user steel a up grade from 420HC.Buck used it for 13yrs..The Bucks
I carry today are mostly of that steel and I like it.Its strong,cuts well,easy to sharpen a good stainless and tough.Just not as good as those upper end steels.But not bad either.
If you don't like I'll reimburse you for it and no harm done.DM
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It just looks like they made another mistake on the description. I have no problem with it, I was just wondering what the 425M was like. Thanks for the info.
 
Plumberdv said:
425M blades

Could some one clue me as to what that steel is? :confused: It does have the 1987 date stamp on it (>), but nothing else but Buck & USA.
Thanks
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According to John Verhoeven in his text Steel Metallurgy for the non-metallurgist, 425M was a Crucible alloy. It had the following composition:
%____425M____440A___420HC
C____0.54______0.7____0.45
Cr___14.______17._____13.
Mo___0.8______0.75____ -
V_____ - ______ - _____0.3

(420HC data taken from Latrobe data sheet. There is no one set composition for 420HC, so what you get depends somewhat on from whom you buy it. I do not know whose 420HC Buck buys.)

So the Carbon content of 425M lies between that of 440A and that of 420HC. While I believe my 703 is 425M, I have not done any testing with it. I do not own any Buck fixed blades in 425M. All of mine are either 440C or 420HC.) I cannot tell you its performance. From the composition I would guess that it would perform similar to 440A, but I have no actual data.
 
Thats some of the highest elements I've seen for 420 and most charts list 425 w/ vanadium.DM
 
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This from AG Russell's steel guide page:

Steel____________440A_____420HC____425M_____440C____154CM____S30V
Carbon(C)_______.65-.75___.40-.50___.40-.54___.95-1.2_____1.05_____1.45
Manganese(Mn)____1.0_______0.8______0.5_______1.0______0.5______--
Chromium(Cr)_____16-18____12-14____13.5-15___16-18______14______14
Vanadium(V)_______--_______.18______.10________--_______--______4.0
Molybdenum (Mo)__.75_______.60____ .60-1.0_____.75______4.0______2.0
Typical Hardness__55-57____56-58____57-59_____57-59____58-62____59-51

Seems like 420HC and 425M are more alike each other than anything else.

http://www.agrussell.com/Steel_Guide/a/73/
 
I was wondering if Buck had made a mistake when they listed the 500 with a 440C blade. I knew mine was a 425 blade from 1987 (>). I am thinking of getting another one so I have one to carry. HL
 
I4Bucks said:
I was wondering if Buck had made a mistake when they listed the 500 with a 440C blade. I knew mine was a 425 blade from 1987 (>). I am thinking of getting another one so I have one to carry. HL
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Evidently they did make a mistake. Joe Houser told me that he was aware that the site needed some attention. They probably just haven't found all the discrepancies yet. I believe that there's still a 112 from the 20th anniversary that's listed with the same blade (440C).
 
I have a 112 with Ram's horn, and one with Elk horn from the 20. Both of them have a three dot blade in them which will be 440C. The description says that the Ram's horn has nickel silver bolsters, the two that I had bought had brass bolsters. Which is no big deal to me because I saw them befor I bought them.HL
 
Flat,Yes. Good job.Thats what I've seen and compares w/ the charts I have.Upon a closer reading:if you heat treat 425 up to 59 it will out preform 440A and 420.So,maybe I got lucky on a purchase.Again heat treat is one of the top 3 factors.I'll agree w/the posting showing 440C and 154CM are at their limits of recommended hardness.Some would say a bit high.Cryo quench and temper plays a huge role there.Thank you.DM
 
Plum,

I too would like to see the glamour shots of this knife. I collect the "Duke" and that knife has interested me as well. I don't know if you will be using this knife or just have it for your collection but I think the 425m will perform well for you it you do use it.

DM,

No problem. What I kept reading was that 425m was similar to 440A. I suppose both 420HC and 425M could be characterized that way. I assume that is because of cost and performance but lower Chromium and the smidge of Vandium make them rather different than 440A.

Btw, I did read that Buck's 420HC is from Latrobe. The reality is (at least for me) that Buck's 420HC with the edge 2000 profile is as good a blade in quality and performance that one will probably ever need.
 
Your probably correct until we go elk hunting or catch a big stringer of white bass.Then we will need the more agressive cutting and edge retention of the next up grade or two steel,for the job.But for everyday use-sure.DM
 
Flat,Just looking at the elements of the two (425 and 420)theres not enough difference
to mince words over.But in my cutting test I've noticed a 30-33% increase in edge retention of 425 over 420. Which brings it closer to 440C.But 440C cuts w/ twice the agressiveness as 425.Some things don't always fit in their peg hole.DM
 
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RE: Vanadium in 425M:
I have never found a product data sheet from a steel company for this alloy. That is why I listed Verhoeven's book as a source. Dr. Verhoeven was a well known professor and did a great deal of work on blade steels.
http://books.google.com/books?id=br...4HO0FI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

I find a bit of discrepancy among various websites when they list steel compositions. I have found errors on both the Benchmade site and AG's site. That is why I try to be careful and state my sources. While it is possible that Dr. Verhoeven's book contains a typo, leaving out the Vanadium, it is equally possible that AG's site is incorrect, adding Vanadium. I am open to correction if somebody can provide definitive data.

RE 420HC composition:
Like I said, the composition of 420HC does vary depending on the source. If Flatlander is correct that Buck uses Latrobe alloy, then my listing of the composition is what Buck uses. Here is a link to the Latrobe data sheet:
http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/LSS_420_HC.pdf

Buck 420HC hardness:
Buck lists their standard hardness for this alloy at 58. Typically that will have a variance of ±1. (I have a Buck 301 that I measured at 59HRC.) I've not found any other maker who heat treats that alloy to that high a hardness.

I like Buck's 420HC because, of the alloys I have tried, it holds an edge better than any other stainless alloy that is that easy to sharpen. While there are other stainless alloys that hold an edge better, they are also harder to sharpen, especially if one is in the field with just a simple whet stone to use for sharpening. YMMV
 
What hardness tester are you using? Do you have the calibration test brick w/it to test its accuracy.Most are only certified to + or - 1 point.So,the 301 could be hardened to 58 and the machine you have access to at work is giving it a 59 and its still within calibration tolerances.The actual true RC of your 301 could be either.All is within tolerance limits.I have a cutlery steel data table from Spyderco Knives of Golden,CO..
They also list exactly the same elements as Flat posted.DM
 
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