What is a dirk, dagger, or stiletto?

R

Raver

Joined
Jun 30, 1999
Messages
138
This wording seems to come up a lot in various state laws. I have no idea what the definition of a dirk is. I have some idea of what a dagger is, that is, a knife with a symmetrical double edged blade. Correct or not? And while we're at it, what is a stiletto? I realize a police officer, judge or prosecuter might come up with some unique interpretations of these, but what would you knife experts say? Also, don't limit yourself to legalities. I really have no clue what a dirk is, and would appreciate some background.

[This message has been edited by Raver (edited 09-07-2000).]
 
stilleto refers to the italian style switchblade.a dirk,i believe, is a fixed blade dagger,with 2 sharpened sides.i havent seen any REAL definition however,so dont hold me to this.

knife laws are so vague,some (???most???) cops dont even know the laws
~maurice
 
I got these from Webster's dictionary. I am not sure if they will be of much help.

Main Entry: 1dirk
Pronunciation: 'd&rk
Function: noun
Etymology: Scots durk
Date: 1557
: a long straight-bladed dagger


Main Entry: dag·ger
Pronunciation: 'da-g&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English
Date: 14th century
1 : a sharp pointed knife for stabbing
2 a : something that resembles a dagger b : a character died used as a reference mark or to indicate a death date
- dag·ger·like /-"lIk/ adjective
- at daggers drawn : in a state of open hostility or conflict


Main Entry: sti·let·to
Pronunciation: st&-'le-(")tO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -tos or -toes
Etymology: Italian, diminutive of stilo stylus, dagger, from Latin stilus stylus -- more at STYLE
Date: 1611
1 : a slender dagger with a blade thick in proportion to its breadth
2 : a pointed instrument for piercing holes for eyelets or embroidery
3 : STILETTO HEEL

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Dennis Bible
 
I am also wondering what a stiletto is, or, more specifically, what CA penal code 12020 means by "stiletto." I know the term is used for Italian autos, and I've also heard it used in reference to OTF's, but I have no idea what the legal definition is. Mentioning autos in 12020 would be redundant and I would not expect it. Would it cover manual Italian folders? Or is a stiletto some kind of spike or very long ice pick type of thing?

Raver - According to CA law, a dirk or dagger is any fixed blade knife or any folding knife which is locked in the open position, or any other object which is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that could cause serious bodily injury or death. In CA, it is legal to carry, but illegal to conceal, a dirk or dagger. I believe that stilettos (whatever they are) are illegal even to own. Check the wording of the laws of your state, as they are under no obligation to be consistent.

As far as I know, the knife person's definition of a dirk is a knife which resembles a dagger, but has no handguard. There was a long thread about the definition of "dirk" in the general forum several weeks ago, IIRC it was started by Frank Castle (though I could be wrong about that).

I've spoken with several police officers in my area and none of them knew what the laws were. YMMV


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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra
 
In a keword search of the California Penal Code at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov (the Legislature's official site), the word "stiletto" occurs only once - in Section 12020 in the definition of "sword cane""

(15) As used in this section, a "cane sword" means a cane, swagger stick, stick, staff, rod, pole, umbrella, or similar device, having concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stiletto.
Click to expand...

There is no separate section outlawing stilettos, whatever they may be.

Section 12020 prohibits the sale or possession of a Monty Pythonesque littany of nasty firearms firearms accessories and explosives and sharp things (i.e. sword canes) and blunt things (i.e. metal knuckles), and prohibits the concealed carrying of a dirk or dagger.

(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, banufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(3) Carries concealed upon his or her person any explosive substance, other than fixed ammunition.
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
Click to expand...

Here's the part defining a dirk or dagger:

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
(25) [concerns large-capacity magazines] ...
(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
Click to expand...

I have a collection of California appellate cases that was current a few months ago, and some legislative history, and some ranting, here

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 09-08-2000).]
 
Does anyone else think that it's funny that we, as collectors, don't even know the definition of these terms; yet some representative that doesn't know the first thing about blades has outlawed them? Just something to think about.

Steve
 
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