What is " Blade length" exactly

B

birdie1212

Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Messages
22
Question I have is what, legally, is the blade length of a knife. Is it the length of the blade that is sharpened, or the length of the blade starting from where the blade comes out of the handle to the tip.

I have a Kasper Companion that I was wearing at the range today, it has a 3.5 inch "sharpened" blade and therefore legal here in Colorado. However one of the LEO's shooting at the range today said that some officers would consider it a "illegal" knife, as the total length of the blade is nearly 4 inches. There is about .5 inch of blade/metal before it reach's the start of the sharpened area.

I would be interested in readers interpretation of this, as for example you could have a knife with a 6" blade, of which only 3" is sharp, would that be legal in a 3" law.
 
What is legal is what the particular state or local law says is legal. :)

What is generally accepted as legal is tip to bolster, that is, the tip of the blade to where it meets the handle.

This is ambiguous in some ways, because a knife with a very curved blade could have a cutting edge longer than the blade length! But what is being measured is the penetration depth: how far in it would go when stabbing.
 
As far as length being a legal issue, I don't know. In the pre 9/11 days, I had my Mini AFCK (3.25" blade) measured by a screener at the airport, and he only measured the cutting edge (3.00") and let me board with it. Ahh... the good old days.;)
 
Gate guards used a credit card looking item that was exactly four inches. They measured from the tip to bolster or tip to end of the cutting edge dependant on what airline, what airport, and what the local laws were

It was a crap shoot, I always carried the delica when flying.

The mini afck passed both there either way.

The rule was 4 inch blade, not cutting edge though some areas only measured the edge as their interpretation.

Brownie
 
I looked up the Colorado knife law on Bernard Levine’s site -


http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/co.txt


and it says (in part) -

"Knife" means any dagger, dirk, knife, or stiletto with a blade over 3-1/2inches in length,…..



Personally, I would want something that was comfortably under the blade length limit no matter which way they decide to measure it.






- Frank
 
Think about it the way any dickhead cop or prosecutor would to avoid trouble. Sometimes just the legal hassle is their intent, and if you roll over, so much the better. Like a semi-bluff in poker. A good lawyer can plea it down to burglary tools or an assult weapon anyway
;)
 
I have tried to find out if New Jersey has a legal length limit for knives but I'm getting nowhere. Anyone have a definitive answer? I've heard/read legal langauge that says if you are "actively engaged" in something like hunting, fishing, camping or work then anything goes, as far as blade length is concerned. But what if you are not?. Say, you are wearing a suit?
Mr. Benyamin, I see you're a fellow NJ knife person. What's your take on it?
 
Under NJ dangerous weapons laws, the following:

2C:39-9.1... Any person who sells any hunting, fishing, combat or survival knife having a blade length of five inches or more or an overall length of 10 inches or more to a person under 18 years of age commits a crime of the fourth degree...

That would seem to indicate the state takes offense to anything over those posted limits of length.

As the laws do not specifically mention folders they are probably deemed lawful to possess, but I would make sure it was under the limit of the above blade lengths.

You might want to look up any case law in the local library about past cases involving knives to determine the courts reading on the matter.

Brownie
 
Perhaps the simplest method of finding out what the legal blade length is in your area is to ask a sheriff/cop (or an attorney). At my job, I fairly often get sheriffs in that live locally and aren't jerks, so no problem there. Here in Indiana, I did some searching through state regulations, but couldn't find anything, but two sheriffs have both told me the limit is 4", but that unless I'm doing something silly with the knife, I could probably carry an 8" bowie and not have a problem (not that I'm going to). An jerk cop might not be so cool with that, so I'm not going to push it.

Part of the difficulty with these laws is that not only are there state laws to consider, but also county laws, federal laws (switchblade law, for example), and court case precedents in all 3 of these levels.
 
I would not trust cops to know the law on knife length. Their record with me at the academy is about 10% who knew the legal length in Mass.

I asked every LE class their own states knife length restriction. Most gave answers based on urban legend passed down from older cop to younger cop verbally. They usually do not touch on the subject at the criminal justice training council during their initial training to hit the streets in uniform. With no exceptions, they had never looked it up to know firsthand.

Many had confiscated the knives over the years that wre not illegal to possess. The probelm was most of the citizenry did not know either when it was taken away, and deferred to the officer and surrrendered it [ usually subsequent to an arrest without the knife actually being involved in the crime but only possessed at the time of ].

I've actually been relieved of two knives myslef during threshold inquiries and had to go to the respective stations, see the chief and get the knife back after producing 269-10b which covers that area in Mass.

I now carry a copy of the law with me in the vehicles for that reason.

Brownie
 
As far as CO is concerned, there is no clear answer. Blade length has been measured in different ways in different cases.

If the statute doesn't define blade length, then the court has to.
 
At one time, ambiguity was supposed to be enough to get a law thrown out as unconstitutional. Now laws are deliberately left vague on the details to encourage citizens to self-censor their own behavior.

If you can't get a straight answer to what kind of knife or length of blade is generally legal, you will tend to carry the smallest, simplest blades rather than risk a problem.

The same principle applies to the diversity of jurisdictions. What the state allows could still get you in trouble in a town you're driving through. What the law itself allows, a particular institution may hassle you about; for example, entertainment parks or tourist sites.

The idea is to get you to give up carrying anything that might offend anyone: firearms, knives, sticks, attitude itself. <baaa, baaaa>

I routinely carry blades up to 4" without thinking about it. If a venue won't let me in with that, I go somewhere else. I don't look for trouble, and a knife is not what I grab when I see trouble coming. If that's not good enough for the law, then, as the saying goes, the law is an ass.

I also routinely carry four or five knives at one time (multitools, SAK, folder, necker) and hiking a nature trail or lakeside trail, a bigger blade (Vaquero Grande or Buck/Strider or MOD CQD or fixed blade).

My best knife moment around here came the day I deliberately brought my Vaquero Grande to cut away some extensive thornbush growth from the trail. A young schoolgirl came over the hill on the way home, saw me slashing wildly at the thorns with that huge blade, and gave me a big smile for clearing the thorns from her regular route.

It isn't always what you're carrying; it's who you are and what you're using it for.

If you are a stranger in a dangerous area, remember to show the police some respect. They are not looking for knife knuts to bust. They are there to protect citizens from each other.

Be cool, don't wave it around, if they have to speak with you, make it clear you are not threatening them. They may have to make quick decisions under stressful circumstance. You don't have to be part of that problem.

The ambiguities of knife and blade and circumstance weigh just as heavily on them as on you. The law gives them the responsibility for keeping the peace, then second-guesses them endlessly as the case goes through the courts.

Ultimately, we will all continue to live under laws passed by representatives we failed to inform and to pressure to do better.
 
A lawyer's take:

I think that you better measure the whole blade from tip to bolster or guard. "Blade length" reads like it means the whole blade, not just the sharpened portion. If the legislature had meant "length of sharpened portion" it would have said so. Since it is potentially ambiguous, I think a court would go with a simpler, more commonly accepted meaning. Remember, if this comes up, you are not going to be dealing with knife people, and they are not going to be inclined to split hairs with you over blade length.
 
Originally posted by jhe888
A lawyer's take:

I think that you better measure the whole blade from tip to bolster or guard. "Blade length" reads like it means the whole blade, not just the sharpened portion. If the legislature had meant "length of sharpened portion" it would have said so. Since it is potentially ambiguous, I think a court would go with a simpler, more commonly accepted meaning. Remember, if this comes up, you are not going to be dealing with knife people, and they are not going to be inclined to split hairs with you over blade length.
Click to expand...

In California, the Appeals Court took the other stance: blade length refers to the sharpened portion, not the whole blade. (In re Rosalio S. (1995) 35 Cal.App.4th 775 , 41 Cal.Rptr.2d 534). In part, because stabbing weapons were already prohibited (on school grounds), in part because the legislature had not defined the term "blade length" for the purposes of the statute in question.
 
Where i grew up, the street law was anything over three fingers was illegal.:(
 
On the other hand, if you stay within length restrictions by overestimating and using tip to bolster, you can't be criticized. If you try to go with sharpened portion and find the jurisdiction you're in just tightened the definition to the more usual, you're stuck.

click click
snap the blade open
and stick it
where it hurts
he blurts
oh sh ...
that's the end of it
 
Tech a Billy : A few months prior to 9/11 I called the NJ State police posing the question of legal blade in a folder. I was told the old fashioned "width of palm" measure was still used. A call to the PA State Police yielded the exact same answer (unfortunately I do not have large hands). Then again, a desk sargent at the Wildood, NJ police station very arrogantly and pompously stated, "Any knife is a weapon", implication being that you carry any blade at your own risk.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top