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What is the best material to resist muriatic acid?

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by razor-edge-knives, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    I etch damasteel at room temp. Usually around 80°F. Never had an issue.

    When etching, acid volume is important … you need enough to have plenty of fresh ions.
    Also, take the blades out every so often and rinse them down well, brush them off with a wire brush, rinse again, and put back in.

    Caution Note:
    For those not familiar with using acid to etch it is not a process for most hobbyists. It takes a proper location (NOT the garage), safety gear, knowledge, ventilation, and equipment. Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid and is nothing to play with.
     
    WValtakis likes this.
  2. Cushing H.

    Cushing H. Gold Member Gold Member

    435
    Jun 3, 2019
    Agreed. Do you feel etching with ferric chloride is safer? I definitely would not want it in my eyes ... but i have never used it - is ventilation less of an issue with it?
     
  3. Storm W

    Storm W

    265
    Feb 19, 2019
    Ferric is safer but he is trying to etch stainless Damascus.

    @DevinT what do you recommend for your Damascus? And I apologize to the OP for the sidebar: what would you recommend for filler metal for welding tangs on it? I can't bring myself to not have ever last inch visible and not stuffed in a tang.
     
  4. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    I just weld a tang extension on with a piece of 440C. I am embarrassed to say that I use my regular wire welder spool for the job. I have never had an issue. The main thing is to have 1.5"" of stub before the weld.
     
    Storm W likes this.
  5. coldsteelburns

    coldsteelburns

    Aug 2, 2010
    I personally don't have any experience, but over the years from reading and vids etc. I've been left with the impression that silver-brazing is a great way to add a tang extension. Here is one article from, even though it's from Wayne Goddard's book which recommends the infamous "goop" quench, it has some interesting info on the topic, namely about brazing not getting hot enough to mess with the grain structure on the tang junction area and thus potentially weakening that area, (at least if you're not able to thermal cycle the steel your blade steel?). It also sounds easier to keep from screwing up if you're not skilled at welding But anyway, take if for what it's worth. https://books.google.com/books?id=nhNjDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT154&lpg=PT154&dq=welding+vs+brazing+stick+tangs+on+knives&source=bl&ots=rZtXBGKtj9&sig=ACfU3U1gT5t_Goq9ZeT2L5Qsbh4t_kd1lw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjgi5CPrvzjAhUEnZ4KHakeBSEQ6AEwCXoECBwQAQ#v=onepage&q=welding vs brazing stick tangs on knives&f=false

    You can always try both methods with your set-up on a couple of scrap blades and do some destruction tests to see which holds up best for you. You might just keep the blade in some water or something in order to braze after HT, since it might melt during heat treating.

    Also, sorry for getting more off-topic R.E.K, Storm's question happened to catch my interest.

    ~Paul
    My YoutubeChannel
    ... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  6. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Silver brazing on staginess steel is not as simple as it is on a carbon steel tang. It is also not nearly as strong as welding . Brazing stainless steel can be nearly impossible for the hobbyist. It takes a special acid based flux and EXACT temperature control. Even a few degrees too hot and the surface oxidizes along with the flux burning … and the joint fails.
     
  7. DevinT

    DevinT KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jan 29, 2010
    Use ferric chloride for martensitic and austenitic combinations like AEB-L and 302, use muriatic acid for martensitic combinations like aeb-l and 154cm, or 12c27 and rwl-34 (damasteel).

    It’s okay to use the mig welder for narrow tangs, use the tig welder and 410 filler for full tangs. Pre-heat and post-heat is a must and weld tangs before final heat treat.

    Hoss
     
    Storm W likes this.
  8. Rsq

    Rsq Gold Member Gold Member

    159
    Aug 7, 2011
    I love urushi lacquer. I use it for this purpose, as well as for anything else I can. It is absolutely inert after it has cured, and will resist anything but the most concentrated nitric acid. Even aqua regia will not affect it. The absolutely easiest way to use it for this is to coat the entire knife (CAREFULLY AND WITH GLOVES) and stick it in a toaster at 150C for a few minutes. Apply another layer and heat-cure it again, but laid out so that any surface exposed by whatever it was resting on the first time you heat it is covered. You can either apply a resist before lacquering, to be removed after the urushi is cured, revealing your etching pattern, or you can scratch your designs into the lacquer until you hit the metal below. Either way, there is no better resist. You can easily remove the lacquer by chipping it off with a softer metal than the knife, then polishing with soft abrasives. I like to leave the lacquer on the tang where it won't be seen, as there is no better rust inhibitor on earth.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  9. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    How long does it take at room temp to get a deep etch?
     
  10. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Depending on what I want it to look like, anywhere from a couple minutes to half an hour.
     
  11. Natlek

    Natlek

    Jun 9, 2015
    I ask same question in many topic and I still don t get answer , @stacy , how durable is that finish on damascus blade ? I'm particularly more interested in Damasteel ? Did it wear with time so it must be again etched ? Sorry if this is stupid question , I never have contact with any kind of damascus knife in person :thumbsup:
     
  12. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Damasteel at Rc60 doesn't wear down much at all. Unless I have to re-sand the bevels, I have never re-etched a damasteel blade.

    You can get three different looks when etching damasteel:
    If etched for only a short time, the etch looks sort of like the hada on an old tamahagane sword. It doesn't have any depth to it,but it shows when the blade is turned. This looks good on blades that you want the effect to be subtle. A yanagi-ba or Japanese type kitchen knife would be a good use of the light etch.

    A little longer etching will make the effect more pronounced and the surface is slightly roughened. This looks good on large kitchen blades.

    A long etch gives strong "topography" and can have a really attractive look when the surface is given a final hand sanding with 1000 grit and a hard backer. This works best on show pieces and larger blades.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
    Natlek likes this.
  13. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011

    Good points! I will add a 4th look to the mix

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2019
    Jason Volkert likes this.

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