What layer count do You use in Damascus Twist pattern?

David Loukides

David Loukides

Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
1,363
Hi Guys,
I am moving on from random pattern to twist. What count do you use? What should I look out for?
I will be using 1084 and 15n20. Right now I am not planning on folding it after I twist.
Sincerely,
Dave
 
I have had good results with around a hundred layers. It depends on how "bold" you want your pattern and how tight you are going to twist. I have done it in a forge pulling the billet out and twisting a section at a time. Also down at Fred's we have done it when the bar was forged down to about an inch and we chucked it in a vise and twisted an inch or two at a time heating with an OA torch. I have seen where Karl Anderson twists in the forge with a vise on one end. He seems to have good results with this.
 
Hi Burton,
Tomorrow I will be making the billet at 112 layers. I will also use the OA torch after the billet is heated up in the forge to maintain heat during the twist. It may be a while but I will post the resulting blade here.
Thank You for Your Help,
Dave
 
I would really like to see the results. I cant make damascus right now (one of these days) but have been playing with some of Mike's low layer damascus and its really cool. Low layer count with a little twist would probably look really good.
 
Here is the forged blank.
119 layers of 1084 and 15n20
A thing I learned is that after I forged the twist into a billet the angle of the twist seems to change.

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11 layers works well for viking style multiple bar pieces (and turkish style patterns), some folks go as low as 5... low layers work well with multiple bars, but for a single bar twist the real question is, how bold do you want the pattern? I've seen anywhere from 11 to 500+, it depends on the look you're after.

Twist the bar a little tighter than you want the final pattern to appear, as the bar is drawn out into a blade the pattern will stretch, how much it stretches depends on how much it is drawn.
 
IMO, about 115-120 is about perfect for what people expect to see in a standard twist.
 
How big was the billet when you twisted? Looks good. I just love having the blade done, hours, sweat, usually blood, into it, still not knowing what the pattern will look like. Then into the fc and BAM, there it is, the fruit of your toil. Can wait to see how yours looks.
Cody
 
Hi Cody,
The billet after getting to 119 layers was 7/8" x 7/8" x 9" long
The blade to the guard forged out to be about 9".
But this blade had some basic issues. One of the issues is a nice bent after heat treating. I did come up with a new way of straightening a blade. It is pretty simple and I will post it in a tread I started called Helpful Hints.

Hi GHEzell,
Your comment is right on what I found out in my first try.
"Twist the bar a little tighter than you want the final pattern to appear, as the bar is drawn out into a blade the pattern will stretch, how much it stretches depends on how much it is drawn."

I will tighten it more than 3 360deg turns in 7+ inches on my next try.
Thank You all for your comments.
Dave
 
Nice Twist Karl,

Here is the one I etched this morning. It will go into my archived bucket do to a buckled edge
119 layers of 1084 and 15n20

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Hey David,

Looks like your 119 layers came out GREAT! Karl's 300+ layers looks WAY cool too! I hear ya about the layer count question. What about the layer ratio variable? What are you doing on that score?

A few years back I made my first (and only) exploring of twists (so far) at Indian George’s with his press, Big Bertha, but I set the project aside for lack of time and needing to focus on basic bladesmithing (which I still haven’t had much time for.) The little bit of stuff I did is pretty rudimentary compared to the stuff you’re doing. I only got the lower layer count billets made up. I isolated three variables to experiment with. I kept the steel selection (1084:15N20) a constant. If I recall correctly, I did something like this...

  1. LAYER THICKNESS RATIO (1084:15N20)
    • 1:1
    • 2:1
    • 4:1
  2. LAYER COUNT
    • 19
    • 40 (actually 38)
    • 76, 152, 304 (were going to be the next steps)
  3. TWIST COUNT per INCH
    • .5 (lazy)
    • 1
    • 2 (tight)
Believe it or not, I wanted to end up with a twist pattern in each layer count at each layer ratio so I could see what the different effects/looks might be. Here are a few photos of as far as I got. I look forward to following your explorations!

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Notice the notches in the center bar? I had a problem with some of the twists until I started knocking off the four corners of the drawn out billets before twisting them. Until having ago at making twisted damascus I didn't realize just how many times you have to twist the buggas. For instance, if the drawn-out billet is 10" long and you want 2 twist to the inch that means twisting the dang thing 20 times. Am I remembering that right?

Hope to get back to this stuff some day. Until then, I'll just have to get extra mileage out of enjoying seeing what you guys do. Thanks for sharing!

All the best, Phil

PS – What did you mean by, "buckled edge"?
 
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Hi Phil,
Great Questions.
What about the layer ratio variable? What are you doing on that score?

Here is what I did,
Started off with 2 billets. Both Identical. Each started off with 4 pieces of 1/8" thick 1084 and 3 pieces of 1/16" 15n20.
Both Billets were drawn and folded to 14 layers.
Both at 14 layers were drawn to 12" and cut in half to 6" lengths giving me 4 total lengths.
Then I combined the billets together with 3 pieces of 15n20 between each layer.
Forge welded giving me a total of 59 layers.
Drawn and folded one time more to give me 118 layers

Twists per inch was .5

What did you mean by, "buckled edge"?

The bucked or wavy edge was what happens when you heat treat a blade that is too thin.
The Blade was plenty thick enough until I found a flaw while grinding prior to heat treatment.
This blade will go into my archive bucket and I will make a better one next time.
I do not mind making mistakes because they give me goals to achieve.
Also the blade had a bend in the tip and I came up with a new way of straightening a blade after tempering. I posted how I did this in my Helpful Hints thread.

Thanks for your post Phil.
Dave
 
I too would like to hear some advice on Turkish twist layer count. Here is pic of a four bar with 120 layers on two of the bars, and 160 on the other two...oops!
4FCFF210-DF58-4136-A605-D7C7869C9A16-2207-0000056161C3D6C3_zpsd099c2bf.jpg
I think it should be less layers and more twists.
 
Great thread David! :)

Glad Karl posted, he does some outstanding twisted steel. :thumbup: :cool:

Normally, I'd be right there with J, I like ~120 layers. But obviously Karl doubling+ that is awesome.

Phil, that post is freak'n GREAT, thank you. :)

Oh, and I have only done about a dozen turkish twist billets, but FOR ME, they have looked best if I keep the billet at 60 layers before drawing out and doing the opposing twists.

The Brazilian guys do some crazy awesome multi-bar twists. Adam DesRosiers used that pattern in his Ms test knives and they are incredible!!!

***edited to add- Just for an example, this is a 5 bar composite (60 layers per bar) that I have roughed out to a 9"+ blade. It will be more dramatic once finish ground.

r4.jpg
 
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Hi Phil,
I made a 4 ft twisting bar to twist. Yours look so consistent they look like they were done on a machine.
How did you do it?
Dave
 
I have a question !
Do you have to twist the whole bar
The same direction ? Or can as you
Draw it out twist it in oppsite directions
In sections ? Example start twisting right
For say two inches stop then twist left
For two inches then twist right again !

Frank
 
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