What stones should I use to sharpen s30v steel?

I guess they are aluminum oxide ceramic stones. Then, they are not as efficient as silicon carbide stones and diamond stones.

Personally, I would recommend carbon steels or VG10 kind of low carbide steels for sharpening practice. Burr removal of S30V and related high vanadium carbide steels is difficult in my limited experience. Not for beginners.

When I tried freehand, I messed up the edge bevel due to inconsistent angles, scratched the blade a lot because of my carelessness, struggled to hit the apex and remove burrs. At the end I ruined the knife aesthetically. You should not practice with an expensive knife, Just get an Opinel.
 
For vanadium carbide-containing steels in percentages as high as S30V and above you can use coarse aluminum oxide or silicon carbide stones for shaping your bevel but will need CBN or diamond to abrade the carbides during honing.
 
KnifeWizard said:
Also, I have never sharpened freehand before and am going to purchase a benchmade 940 in s30v steel. Is this a bad steel to learn on since it's a pretty hard steel? Thanks.
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DO NOT LEARN ON TOP QUALITY STEEL OR TOP QUALITY KNIVES. I apologize for shouting, but if learning freehand you should get some inexpensive knives to learn on. Go from there.

For technical recommendations, 42's advice is right on.
 
Buy some 8Cr13MoV from Spyderco or Byrd or other reputable brand (I never tried Kershaw, so cannot recommend) for learning. Good steel to practice with.

Or a Victorinox paring, even cheaper but still good to practice with and won't give problems. Avoid junk knives, they can't give good response and might frustrate unnecessarily.
 
S30V can be frustrating (very) if attempting to learn good sharpening technique with stones not up to the task. Focus on learning technique with simpler steels of known decent quality, from reputable makers. Once you have the technique down, a diamond hone or three in the 325-1200 grit range can make sharpening S30V pretty simple, or even very simple.

Aluminum oxide or silicon carbide stones can be used at coarser grit for hogging off metal in reshaping jobs, but they'll also exacerbate burring issues in doing such heavy work on S30V. A diamond hone in a coarse/XC grit will work fast, and lessen the burring issues that have to be dealt with afterward, in the refining steps. As mentioned previously, diamond is better in the refining stages for shaping/honing the vanadium carbides in S30V. I recommend a diamond hone in the earlier stages as well, for the same reason, as it'll still work better for actually cutting the carbides, as compared to the 'bludgeoning' effect yielded with lesser abrasives that have trouble cutting the carbides. That 'bludgeoning' effect beats up the edge and will make for bigger, uglier and more difficult-to-clean-up burrs. Good working edges on S30V can be had anywhere in the Coarse - EF range (325 - 1200), so long as refining technique is good with those hones. In previously mentioning how simple S30V can be in sharpening, good technique with just a 325-grit diamond hone can do everything, from reprofiling to finishing.

Learning and practicing thinning/rebevelling and heavier grinding technique on the simpler knives will also come in very, very handy in sharpening 'tactical' knives in S30V with thickish grinds (of which there are many, many).


David
 
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HeavyHanded said:
DO NOT LEARN ON TOP QUALITY STEEL OR TOP QUALITY KNIVES. I apologize for shouting, but if learning freehand you should get some inexpensive knives to learn on. Go from there.

For technical recommendations, 42's advice is right on.
Click to expand...

HH -

To be clear, I am NOT calling you out, and I don't know if I agree or not with your statement.

Is your argument that a beginner may trash a good knife and waste money? If so, do you have any other arguments in your back pocket?

I'm asking because it would seem that Murray Carter disagrees. He states "I have always believed that a beginner should practice with a high quality knife because only a blade of good metallurgy (hard blade) will produce the kind of results the sharpening student is looking for. If the goal is to achieve a “scary sharp” edge, the student must sharpen a blade capable of producing one, and softer blades are not capable of that. The misunderstanding is that a good quality knife will be ruined from amateur sharpening practice, but such is never the case. As students gain an understanding and mastery over sharpening, they will be able to refurbish the same knife at will."

On at least a surface reading of Carter's statement - this version is from KnifePlanet.Com, 11/25/2015 - he maintains a position opposed to yours. That is, he would seem to hold that a student of sharpening should practice only on premium knives.

Logically, and by this I mean following the rules of logic in writing, both of you are making a claim for which the only evidence offered is your respective authorities. So - again, logically - we would have to determine a winner by examining each person's accomplishments as a bladesmith / sharpener.

I am not sure that I agree with Carter, based on my own experience. I'm also not sure that I, personally, have the knowledge to refute his argument, and I hope that you do in fact have an additional unstatd argument which will in fact refute his position.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

---RLDubbya
http://helltownknives.com
Sharper than hell, with good reason.
 
A blade of 'good metallurgy' doesn't necessarily have to be a 'premium' knife, nor does it have to be a 'hard blade' as described in Carter's words (assuming he's talking about really hard blades at/above 60 HRC or whatever's typical in the 'premium knives' he makes and deals with).

The 'results the student is looking for', assuming he means a sharp edge resulting from accepted sharpening practice and methods, can come from a knife purchased at the grocery store, Walmart, etc. I say this, because I've found it to be true with most of the kitchen knives I use, which are all inexpensive ones ($8 - $10). The only negative with most of them, is that the blade/edge grinds aren't great; all are much thicker near the edge, with very obtuse edge angles. That's independent of the metallurgy itself, which I've usually found appropriate to the design goals of the knife itself. In other words, once the blade is thinned near the edge, and the edge reprofiled to better slicing geometry (30° inclusive or lower), these knives can be useful and impressive cutters for their designed use, i.e., with food. That's why such knives can be perfect learning tools for sharpening, because they respond as one would expect to what we're taught is 'good' sharpening methodology.

It's true that some really cheaply made knives have really BAD metallurgy, which won't take a sharp edge no matter what, because they're too soft, too brittle, too coarse-grained, etc. But even among inexpensive knives, I've found the metallurgy (i.e., heat treat, etc) in most of mine to be appropriate to the knives' intended uses, and behave favorably and predictably in following good sharpening practice. And as long as one understands WHY some knives fail to take a workable edge, there's also a good sharpening lesson learned in that.

It's also true that some 'premium knives' with very hard blades can respond beautifully to good sharpening practice (and they'd better respond). But one doesn't have to commit to learning on such blades alone, in order to learn all the fundamentals about sharpening knives.

Edited to add:
Some of the best teachers for me, in inexpensive knives, came from makers like Victorinox (paring knives for $6-$8), Opinel (Sandvik 12C27Mod versions for ~ $15), and Case ($20 - $30 is typical). In particular, Case's 420HC at HRC 55-57 has been the best teacher ever for me, in terms of learning what burrs are about and how to deal with them. And the Sandvik stainless Opinels respond BEAUTIFULLY to most any chosen edge finish, as do the Victorinox blades.

And in more recent days, I've had a lot of fun with a FARBERWARE 5" santoku-style kitchen knife in 'mystery' Chinese steel (assumed, based on Chinese manufacture), purchased at Walmart a few years ago for ~ $8 or so. I've thinned the edge to somewhere at/below 25° inclusive and have experimented with edge finishes from satin to high polish, just to see how it handles food chores (and it's been doing very well).


David
 
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You can sharpen cheap knives to be nearly just as sharp as high grade steel knives. Get something inexpensive that is simple to learn the basics on like an opinel no. 8 or something along those lines. Spend a lot of time on the stones. Change angles if you want, learn to feel where the bevel is, learn when to transition to the next stone, learn to deburr, and most important learn to make it sharp. Most important thing is to go slow and practice the fundementals every time.
 
Sharpening freehand is not that difficult, just try to maintain an even angle -- an angle guide is useful. Diamond hones are the most efficient way of sharpening steels with high carbide content (D2, S30V, CTS-XHP and other powder steels), and will work equally well on high carbon and non-powder stainless steels with lower carbide content.
 
RLDubbya said:
HH -

To be clear, I am NOT calling you out, and I don't know if I agree or not with your statement.

Is your argument that a beginner may trash a good knife and waste money? If so, do you have any other arguments in your back pocket?

I'm asking because it would seem that Murray Carter disagrees. He states "I have always believed that a beginner should practice with a high quality knife because only a blade of good metallurgy (hard blade) will produce the kind of results the sharpening student is looking for. If the goal is to achieve a “scary sharp” edge, the student must sharpen a blade capable of producing one, and softer blades are not capable of that. The misunderstanding is that a good quality knife will be ruined from amateur sharpening practice, but such is never the case. As students gain an understanding and mastery over sharpening, they will be able to refurbish the same knife at will."

On at least a surface reading of Carter's statement - this version is from KnifePlanet.Com, 11/25/2015 - he maintains a position opposed to yours. That is, he would seem to hold that a student of sharpening should practice only on premium knives.

Logically, and by this I mean following the rules of logic in writing, both of you are making a claim for which the only evidence offered is your respective authorities. So - again, logically - we would have to determine a winner by examining each person's accomplishments as a bladesmith / sharpener.

I am not sure that I agree with Carter, based on my own experience. I'm also not sure that I, personally, have the knowledge to refute his argument, and I hope that you do in fact have an additional unstatd argument which will in fact refute his position.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

---RLDubbya
http://helltownknives.com
Sharper than hell, with good reason.
Click to expand...

Well, I do not like to be on the opposite side of MC on anything knife or sharpening related, but...
The novice has one major problem to deal with before even worrying about crafting a cutting edge, and that is developing some sort of angle consistency. This could be learned with a piece of flat aluminum stock on woodworkers sandpaper for all intents and purposes. Before this is learned all one is liable to do is grind metal off a perfectly good knife.

If that knife cost you $50 or more, there is going to be a great deal of anxiety associated with the sight of your perfectly good knife slipping away in your hands - either cosmetically or functionally. This is going to produce a negative feedback on following attempts. Learning is not easily accomplished under those conditions.

I did not become proficient until I destroyed several nice knives and finally decided there was no way around it - I had to learn how to use the coarse stone, and well. This ate up another knife or two but I'd switched to cheaper ones, so I was able to study the mechanics of grinding with a more casual attitude. As I got better I went back and did have a go at the better steel on the knives I'd wrecked, and this was very informative, but it didn't bring those knives back. One of the ones I learned on is a Chicago Cutlery utility pattern that survived to be on my magnet block to this day - I keep it crazy sharp on nothing more than a coffee cup.

Yes, it would be better if someone were to hand you a couple of custom HT high RC knives made from high end steel and some really nice sharpening stones, you'd have a much easier time with burr removal and getting the edge extremely sharp. In that respect I agree with Mr Carter 100%. If you were to buy that knife with your own $ and try to learn, you might wind up wishing you'd paid someone to sharpen it for you.

The second part of the advice I usually give along with "Do not learn on a knife you value" is that once you can create an edge that makes you value that old/cheap knife just for how sharp it is, then have a go at something more expensive. A relatively cheap Western kitchen utility knife or Chef's pattern will take a very nice edge, might not hold it for long but it can be made as sharp as any beginner could hope. As an added bonus, use in the kitchen will tell you plenty about different edge finishes and having to touch it up often will give you solid practice.
 
S30V is a little harder to learn how sharpen, especially when trying to produce a clean edge with apex thinner/sharper than 2 microns, even when using diamond abrasive. Akin to learn how to drive in a rainy condition. Best to master/attain the basic skills using functional blades/cars, then tackle next level of difficulty. bm940 has fairly thick edge, thereby wide bevel when sharpening at 15-18dps, translate to more difficulty in keeping steady freehand angle.

At any rate for s30v, I recommend: dmt ee, ~1200 grit diamond plate, 2 coarse grit (180-600) in diamond or waterstone or oilstones. Start/probe with finest grit, when futile (can't get edge sharp) then step down to next coarser grit, once edge got sharp, then walk up to next finer grit but for s30v, should end (refine to diamond grit) at least with 1200 grit.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Well, I do not like to be on the opposite side of MC on anything knife or sharpening related, but...
The novice has one major problem to deal with before even worrying about crafting a cutting edge, and that is developing some sort of angle consistency. This could be learned with a piece of flat aluminum stock on woodworkers sandpaper for all intents and purposes. Before this is learned all one is liable to do is grind metal off a perfectly good knife.

If that knife cost you $50 or more, there is going to be a great deal of anxiety associated with the sight of your perfectly good knife slipping away in your hands - either cosmetically or functionally. This is going to produce a negative feedback on following attempts. Learning is not easily accomplished under those conditions.

I did not become proficient until I destroyed several nice knives and finally decided there was no way around it - I had to learn how to use the coarse stone, and well. This ate up another knife or two but I'd switched to cheaper ones, so I was able to study the mechanics of grinding with a more casual attitude. As I got better I went back and did have a go at the better steel on the knives I'd wrecked, and this was very informative, but it didn't bring those knives back. One of the ones I learned on is a Chicago Cutlery utility pattern that survived to be on my magnet block to this day - I keep it crazy sharp on nothing more than a coffee cup.

Yes, it would be better if someone were to hand you a couple of custom HT high RC knives made from high end steel and some really nice sharpening stones, you'd have a much easier time with burr removal and getting the edge extremely sharp. In that respect I agree with Mr Carter 100%. If you were to buy that knife with your own $ and try to learn, you might wind up wishing you'd paid someone to sharpen it for you.

The second part of the advice I usually give along with "Do not learn on a knife you value" is that once you can create an edge that makes you value that old/cheap knife just for how sharp it is, then have a go at something more expensive. A relatively cheap Western kitchen utility knife or Chef's pattern will take a very nice edge, might not hold it for long but it can be made as sharp as any beginner could hope. As an added bonus, use in the kitchen will tell you plenty about different edge finishes and having to touch it up often will give you solid practice.
Click to expand...

Again, I did not mean, nor wish, to put you on the spot in any way. I value your opinion, and I find that if I don't ask pointed questions I don't learn.

Your answer makes a lot of good sense. I obviously do not know what Carter is thinking when he says that no knife has ever been ruined by a beginner. Perhaps he just means that no knife has ever been damage to the point of not working. Perhaps scratches simply don't count in his book.

FYI: when I learned to freehand sharpen, at age 14, about 42 years ago, I had two real choices. I could use the Buck fixed blade I had saved my own money to buy for about 14 months, or I could use one of my father's fillet knives. I wisely chose the Buck. I didn't really feel any anxiety or other negative emotion during my learning period; I did have some good emotions a few times, when I thought "Woopsie. I'm really glad I'm not using that fillet knife now..." My godfather worked with me, helping me along the learning curve, and by the time he said I was ready to sharpen the fillet knives, I was.

I recently picked up a Wicked Edge; I did scratch up one good knife of mine a bit in the process of learning. I was more angry with myself for not paying attention to what I was doing. The knife I scratched was an Emerson Super Commander; my answer to my anger was to put a Spyderco Nirvana in the vise and have a go. That went well, as did every knife since then - but I've scratched that same Emmie a couple times. I think it could be simply the result of boredom: for whatever reason, I have some trouble getting a nice edge put on the Emmie.

On other knives from S30V steel to S110VN steel, I have no problem. A Manix LW S110VN was no problem at all; 20-25 minutes and I was done putting a treetopping edge on it. And still I struggle with the Emmie; I'm beginning to believe that Emerson was sent from hell just for me.

My one big Japanese kitchen knife was no problem either. Really, nothing was a problem aside from the Emmie.

I can see both sides of this debate: I get the concept of using good knives to learn sharpening, as that might better mimic what you will ultimately sharpen. Looking closer at your side of the debate, I think that position could be strengthened easily by simply holding, along with "don't' use a good knife because of the negative feedback potential," that ultimately Carter's position implies we should learn on exactly the same knives we will sharpen "for real." However, we rarely (never) are given the opportunity to use the exact same kind of knife for both practice and paid work. Inevitably, I will as a sharpener, receive more knives of a type I do not have - the best preparation I can get for this is to practice on a variety of knives.

I also very much like your point that the different edges will give the beginner more practice. IIRC, the Carter school of thought holds that the beginner should first practice sharpening about 100 knives. It's hard to get that number of knives, unless you are involved in the industry. Even purchasing $15 knives leaves me with a pretty big tab to chew on.

Thanks for your insight. It is appreciated.
 
HeavyHanded said:
DO NOT LEARN ON TOP QUALITY STEEL OR TOP QUALITY KNIVES. I apologize for shouting, but if learning freehand you should get some inexpensive knives to learn on. Go from there.

For technical recommendations, 42's advice is right on.
Click to expand...

Yes. I was quite upset when I ruined my first Cqc7 learning freehand on it. And that was a chisel grind to boot.
 
Shapton Glass stones will cut most anything. I've had great results using them to sharpening pretty much any steel.
 
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