What the Hell is a Dirk please!!!

Frank Castle

Frank Castle

Joined
Dec 6, 1999
Messages
667
Sorry for the language. But I have tried very unsuccsessfully to get a description or pic that fits.All I know is that they are Illegal. I have tried this search engine, AOL search. All I get is the Scott dirk. I have recently forund the kamakazie dirk, and a cold steel culloden. Would a 17" blade be a dirk?

I can't really find any pic of current or past manufacturers. Do they stay away from the "label" Dirk to avoid the legality issue?

Is it the length itself? Blade style? making it different. What is the difference on a dirk vs Bowie vs bayonet??
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These are some answers:

"all dirks are daggers but not all daggers are dirks".
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"I have no idea"
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" it is a tri-bladed knife makes a non stichable wound making it very dangerous"
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Pics are worth a thousand words so I may "get it" Thank you.
 
As I understand it, dirk is a Scottish term for a dagger. I have never heard of them being illegal (at least not where I live, but we can own handguns too. Praise Carolina).
 
I don't have a picture available, but a Dirk is about 5'4", W/M (some Cherokee ancestry), brown hair (flat top), brown eyes (we know what that means), 200lbs (not as much muscle as about 10 yrs ago). In general a rather handsome fellow. Last time I checked, I still fall within the boundaries of the law.
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Hope this helps.

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If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance,
baffle them with your BS.
 
The word "dirk" as used in the Texas Penal Code (and most jurisdictions following the Model Penal Code-YMMV) is synonymous with "dagger", i.e., a "two-edged weapon" regardless of blade length. The Oxford English Dictionary says it was historically the dagger of a Highlander or a junior naval officer.
 
The "Dirk" was a weapon of war (from england -> scotisch highlander)and was about 18" from blade tip to the top of the hilt. It had an 11-12 inch blade and was worn centrally located on the waistbelt. When in battle the Dirk was carried behind the Targe or shield. In some cases it also served as an eating utensil.

A full set of "Highland" accoutrements was essential for the fashion-conscious patriotic Scottish laird of the first half of the nineteenth century. They generally consisted of a basket-hilted sword and dirk with gilt metal decorative mounts, an elaborate horse hair sporran with a gilt metal cantle; black leather waist and sword belts with gilt metal heraldic mounts; a powder horn; a cartridge case; and a steel flintlock pistol. All these items and more had their origins in the weapons and jewelry of the seventeenth and eighteenth-century Highlanders, but by the nineteenth century they had been imbued with the Romanticism of the period.
dirk.jpg




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Ray
MesserForum.net
 
Etymology! One of my favorite subjects
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The word dirkis synomous with dagger.

Dirk is an archaic and obsolete term in the English language. In the knife community, it is used most commonly for ethnic daggers of various sorts.

The word is however used quite frequently in Laws. This is probably because most laws derive in part from still older laws, going back to old England and beyond.

Dirk is the latter form of the words durk and dork, and is probably related to or an altered form of german dorch, meaning dagger. This word probably derives from dhelg, a needle, or to pierce or puncture. Other related forms are dholg in Germanic.

In a legal sense, I believe a dirk means Any fixed blade knife. It does not have to be double edged (the common meaning of dagger). This is the intent of the law in California at least. It is illegal to carry concealed any dirk or dagger. This applies to any fixed blade knife. Double edged knives are specifically prohibited in some states. But in California, a double edge folding knife carried in the folded position is OK.

Ironically, since laws in many states usually try to exempt 'common pocketknives' from concealed weapons prohibitions, folding knives up to certain lengths, carried in the folded position, are Not considered dirks or daggers. If they are carried in the open position, they are illegal.

Curiously, recent appelate decisions in California have had the effect of eliminating the length restrictions on the definition of common pocket knife. It is legal to carry Very large knives (the Sifu and the CS Vaquero Grande come to mind) that would be illegal to carry in many other states. However, concealed carry of a five inch overall length fixed blade knife with a two inch blade would be illegal. That makes no sense to me at all.

Knife laws are among the most absurd and illogical bits of legislation in existence. Many states are trying to define knife carry as illegal based on the 'Intent' of the 'suspect'. I have no real idea how a police officer is supposed to determine one's intent to use a perfectly natural tool as a 'weapon' unless you happen to be caught in the act of stabbing someone.

Strictly speaking the word dirk should be most closely associated with double edged fixed blade knives designed primarily as weapons (any length blade would qualify). But in the unreal world of California legality, it means any fixed blade knife. Conceal it and you are committing a criminal act.

[edit addition: Of course, as Jim March states below, it is really impossible to define the legal meaning of dirk or any knife law without knowing which statutes apply. That depends on where you live, and where you are. And frequently the law is not even what will be at issue. I'm sorry I raised the legal angle on the word Dirk. It is used in so many different ways by different laws in different states that even trying to answer the question will result in confusion and error. You alone can research the knife laws best for where you live.]

Hope this helps.

Paracelsus, lover of words

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 08-06-2000).]
 
And for a complete (and utterly baffling) discussion of California "dirk and dagger" law by James Mattis, look here. "Don't take your dirk to town, Son, leave your dirk at home, Boy,....". (And God help you if you get caught with a poniard, but that's another story!
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WE CANNOT HELP YOU WITH KNIFE LAW QUESTIONS UNLESS WE KNOW WHAT NATION, AND IN THE CASE OF THE US, WHAT STATE YOU ARE IN.

Sorry for shouting but it's getting annoying dealing with these queries by people unwilling to tell us approx. where they are.

In California, the term is in the lawbooks but it's become totally meaningless in relation to a particular knife type. IF you're in Calif, go to my knife page, you'll find links to James Mattis's pages plus other BF threads discussing CA knife law.

Jim March http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/blades.html
 
Judges frequently look to a published dictionary for meaning, in the many cases, in knife law and in law in general, when the word is not given some specific and frequently strained definition in the statute.

As Paracelsus observed, words like "dirk" sometimes tell you a statute goes so far back that it can't be blamed on liberals. In searching California court cases once, the only "dirk" references I could find were either in the quotation of the statute (Section 12020 of the CA Penal Code) or the first name of an attorney involved in the case.

In the knife market, a "dirk" is usually a Scottish-inspired "period piece" stabbing knife.

On the street, a "dirk" is one of several bad words for any knife the authorities want to make an issue of.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Originally posted by Jim March:
WE CANNOT HELP YOU WITH KNIFE LAW QUESTIONS UNLESS WE KNOW WHAT NATION, AND IN THE CASE OF THE US, WHAT STATE YOU ARE IN.
Click to expand...

Jim, chill out. Mr. Castle wasn't looking for a leagal definition. He wanted to know what a dirk was. Kind of like some people want to know what a kurkri(SP?) is, or what a Tibetan spirit dagger is.
At least, that's the way I read it.

Blademan, I just read that same right up on the Scots dirk last night. Weird.


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Joshua, aka Feneris,'Destroyer of Whisky' of the Terrible Ironic Horde
But doom'd and devoted by vassal and lord.
MacGregor has still both his heart and his sword!
-MacGregor's Gathering, Sir Walter Scott
 
Well thank you for the resonse. Berkley for the Court interpretations link.

JIM your right I should have posted that I live in peoples republic of massachusettes for any additional help one may give. Feneris was correct that I was just wanting to learn what it is for general knowlege though.

It seems to me that it is a very vauge term. Leaving some descretion and common sense to play part here.

I have posted this on another forum also. From the feedback there I get that its a short sword type. But then I see its a dagger 3".

From what I get is its a pointy weapon made for stabbing. This made sense up until the part when I find a 7" Kamakaze Katana blade labeled a DIRK by the maker.Is it still a DIRK being 10" longer being exactly the same style? I would like to meet the dirk who made this law. But then again ZOOBOWS are ilegal here to.
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Hi Punisher. A dirk is a dagger. There are modern dirks: SOG makes the pentagon and desert dagger, Boker makes the applegate
 
nonbox, you can't just say a dirk is a dagger.
the verb dirk has its origin in scotland, while a dagger is usally double edged, the original dirk was not always double edged.
however, maybe today a dirk is clarified as a dagger today which may be true, but not every dagger is a dirk, the dirk is only a specific type of dagger...

a good example is the roman gladius, its a short sword, but there are many short swords out there, to say every short sword is a gladius is just wrong.
my 2 cents

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Ray
MesserForum.net
 
I just got done with a fairly exhaustive Michigan analysis here: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum54/HTML/002227.html

I'll try and do the same for MA on this thread tomorrow.

In general, historical Dirks were single-edged, in what we'd call "short sword" length class, blade between 12" and 18". But the Scots also tended to pack a smaller single edge piece between 3" and 5" or so in the top of their socks or nearby, a kind of "last ditch backup" called, if memory serves, a "Skean Dhu". Which often gets translated "Dirk" because most people, myself included despite 1/4th Highlander blood, couldn't properly pronounce "Skean Dhu" if you put a Dirk to my throat.
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And since most "boot knives" today are double-edge, that's the source of a lot of confusion.

Lesse...Cold Steel's Cullodens are pretty good interpretations of the real Scots "boot knife", if you ignore the stainless blade, optional serrations and rubber grip
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. See also: http://www.coldsteel.com/culloden.html

They're a sort of "mini Dirk".

LEGALLY, it's a whole 'nuther world. California for example has a "dirk or dagger" ordinance, but then goes on to redefine that in totally non-history (and downright irrational) fashion. I'd be willing to bet good money MA is as bad or worse
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. So yes, this is most *definately* a legal question, so we needed to know what state. I'd do more digging but...sorry, it's 3:00am out here in Californicate so I doubt I'd even get it right
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. But I'll get to it.

Jim
 
The Skean Dhu (from the Gaelic skean - knife dhu - black) is a fairly recent addition to highland dress. After the failed rebellion in 1745 the Brits imposed some rather draconian measures in Scotland. Among other things Bagpipes, tartan, and the carry or possession of a weapon were forbidden.

The Skean Dhu is a miniature version of the Highland Dirk popularized as a work around to the English laws. The name has a double meaning in that the handle is traditionally black, and as the knife was easily concealed, it's intent was also perhaps black.

Traditionally, the Skean Dhu is carried on the outside of the right leg, tucked into the hose top with an inch and a half to two inches showing. This was supposedly so that when Highlanders got together somewhere every one could see everyone else's knife, Not having your Skean Dhu in your hose top was definitely considered to be unfriendly.

Today, in our kinder, gentler society shops that sell Highland dress sell combs and bottle openers with skean dhu handles to stick in your hose tops so you will look right without having to carry a knife!


Mike
 
Blademan summed it up nicely.
However, as it has such a provocative name and few ever need a dirk today, the term has been hijacked and been used to sell daggers.
Its a big shame.
 
The American usage of dirk probably got fixed by usage in the early 1800's. A "dirk" is a term that was used in Brittish and American military circles of that era.
In the military, particularly the navy, officers would carry long knives called dirks. They
would not look like a Scottish dirk, but more like a fancy cut down saber.
In America of the 1800's, a dirk came to mean a single-edged knife
designed for personal defense. Theoretically it could apply to a bowie
knife, but generally bowies were considered distinct. Usually a
dirk was lighter and narrower. It could be long like a sword bayonet
or it could be as short as 5". A long narrow folding knife with a spear
point would be a "folding dirk". One common distinction from a
hunting knife is that a dirk was distinctly designed for stabbing. Dirks
were commonly double-edged at the point. A tanto is also intended
for thrusts and would fit the intent of a dirk. The primary distinction
between a dagger and dirk, is that a dagger is virtually always double-edge
for its entire length.



[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 08-07-2000).]
 
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