What tools are made from tool steel?

bladeprince

bladeprince

Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
956
Most of us have knives made from D2 steel. I have a few made from A2 and I have also seen offerings in M2. I've heard of these steels also called "tool steel". I was just wondering what sort of tools are made from these steels. One guess that comes to mind is drill bits, but I don't know for sure. I can't imagine even expensive hand tools, like Snapon, making pliers etc. out of any of D2, for example. I know this is not a knife question, I'm just curious.

Regards
 
bladeprince said:
Most of use have knives made from D2 steel. I have a few made from A2 and I have also seen offerings in M2. I've heard of these steels also be called "tool steel". I was just wondering what sort of tools are made from these steels. One guess that comes to mind is drill bits, but I don't know for sure. I can't imagine even expensive hand tools, like Snapon, making pliers etc. out of any of the D2, for example. I know this is not a knife question, I'm just curious.

Regards
Click to expand...

I'm with you - I've often wondered about that myself. I have aways thought that these tool steels are used to cut lesser tough steels. Maybe some expert here can fill us in.
 
firstly , we will discussion about the cost of a knife .
usually ,in china, a knife is made of 8cr14mov is just usd 8 (eight ),while other reputatitve knives are about at least usd 20.
The profit of making knives is very high ,so high cost of steel can be used .(it only need a sheet of steels)
In industrial aspects , d2 is just less expensive than m2 ,but higher than carbon steel.
m2,d2 are used as cutting tools for soft/slightly hard metal or hard wood.
For making hand tools,carbon steel is only be used ,as its cost is lower.
 
The tools are machining tools: lathe tools, reamers, milling cutters, taps & dies, chucks, etc.

I believe they are mostly HSS (high speed steels). Carbide is much expensive, so HSS is used when it will do. I can't recall carbide being used in knives, maybe it has poor properties that offset the edge-holding ability.
 
One of the old Benchmade Emersons (I keep thinking cqc7) had a carbide edge/ti blade option for use when a nonmagnetic blade was needed.
 
As I recall "drill rod" is A2. I think of "tool steel" as being an truncation of "machine tool steel". It is steel that goes at the cutting or impact end of a factory or machine shop power tool.
 
Most all drill bits are HSS (very hard M2 or a variant with more colbalt). I've used endmills made of HSS before, but you have to keep coolant on them to prevent them from going orange! Carbide (far more expensive than any steel) is used in most of the endmills that I cut with. D2, A2, etc. are called tool steels because that is what dies (from tool and die) are made from. Huge billets many tons in weight are cut to make a single tool (kinda makes knives seem insignificant). I've heard of other shops getting broken into and the theives making off with huge billets of tool steel, some worth around $100,000!
Most chinese hand tools are made of "vanadium stainless steel" which is kind of similar to cheap chinese knife steel. I have not heard of many hand tools being made of M2, D2, or A2, as these steels are too brittle (and expensive).
 
I belive its to do with the toughness and hardenability of the steel- and that they are used to make cutting tools for things like metal lathes.
The steel matters less, i suspect, then the heat treatment.
 
michaelmcgo said:
I've heard of other shops getting broken into and the theives making off with huge billets of tool steel, some worth around $100,000!
Click to expand...

Very interesting. To most people, steel is just steel. More or less the same "stuff". Being a machanic for years (a long time ago) and also into guns (hunting/shooting), I was aware of some different types of steels. But until I got into knives, I was not aware that something with the name "steel" could be so expensive. Modern techniques, composition, etc. can really add up. Fasinating!

Regards
 
Cliff Stamp said:
As an example of use, A2, D2 and M2 are all used in planer blades.



In short, tighter tolerances on composition.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

I'm sure what you mean by "tighter tolerances" of composition. A crappy D2 is imo still a D2 and not for instance a martensitic chromium steel. I dont think you are right here Cliff.

It has to do with composition and the application. The boundaries of steel classes are a bit fluid but I'll try to explain.

* Carbon steels - these are pure iron and carbon compositions (I chose to disregard impurities). Ex C75, 15LM. Band saw steels are here.
* Low alloyed steels - basically carbon steels with a number of alloys but basically non of them are more than 2-4%. Sometimes reffered to as tough-hardened steels. Also non-stainless. Ex D6A steel.
* Martensitic chromium steels - Iron, carbon and chromium (ex. 13C26)
* Austenitic steels - classical stainless steels. Iron, carbon, chromium and nickel. 18-8 steel is here. 18%Cr and 8% Ni, this came with the invention of the dishwasher. Big application is cutlery like spoons, forks etc. It's expensive now with nickel prices so cutlery now tends to move to martensitic chromium steels.
* There are several others like, precipitation hardening steels, Ni-base, Cobalt-chromium etc. but I'm not writing a report here.
* So then, finally we have Tool steels. There are 4 fundamental types:
1: Carbon steels - High carbon steels. 1% and up.
2: Hot working tool steels - Used for heat/wear demanding applications such as tube extrusion. They have Cr <18%, Mo <2%, Ni and Tungsten.
3: Cold working tool steels- <18% Cr, <5% Mo, <2% V. Used for wear demanding applications like blanking. D2 and A2 are cold working tool steels.
4: HSS - High speed steels - <4% Cr, 4-10% Mo, <2% V and <20% Tungsten. These are used for milling, turning, drilling and such metal working applications. The M-series is here, like the M2.

Imho, none of these tool steels are very good knife steels because of the mega-carbides you get from the combination of high carbon and high Cr/Mo/V etc. I believe the martensitic chromium steels with balances compositions are better suited as knife steels.

//Jay

PS. I sometimes write a lot about swedish steel makers and especially Sandvik. that is because they are located only a few miles from my house and the pre-dominant employer in the area. So here is another Sandvik fact, they produce around 900 grades of steel. A big portion of this about 50% I've heard are own developed patents.
 
JayAndersson said:
I'm sure what you mean by "tighter tolerances" of composition.
Click to expand...

"Special precautions are taken in tool steel manufacturing to keep porosity, segregation, non-metallic inclusions and impurities at a minimum." Allen, MT&P

Alvin has quoted some of the details on the tolerances for tool steels on rec.knives, usually quoting from ASM "Tool steels". 4'th edition. My point was that there are alloy steels and tool steels with the same composition but that doesn't make them both tool steels. It is very correct though that tool steel classes have specific compositions which should have been noted as well.

Imho, none of these tool steels are very good knife steels because of the mega-carbides you get from the combination of high carbon and high Cr/Mo/V etc. I believe the martensitic chromium steels with balances compositions are better suited as knife steels.
Click to expand...

Some of those steels like A2 can have a small amount of very fine carbides (0.5-1.2 microns) as do the lower carbon W series steels. I do agree in general that the high carbide steels have their issues but I would hesitate to say in general they don't make good knife steels. The goodness of a steel depends on what you want in a knife.

A lot of people are using knives at very high edge angles in overall really high cross sections. Now forgetting about debating that profile for a moment and just accepting that it is used, for those types of blades, the higher carbide steels work well because their limitations (low edge stability) are compensated by the geometry.

It also has to do with the type of cutting, D2 for example works well as an aggressive slicing steel at very coarse finishes. Again the low edge stability of the steel is compensated by fact that the finish doesn't need high edge stability and the extreme wear resistance of D2 is an asset with no real drawback.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Some of those steels like A2 can have a small amount of very fine carbides (0.5-1.2 microns) as do the lower carbon W series steels. I do agree in general that the high carbide steels have their issues but I would hesitate to say in general they don't make good knife steels. The goodness of a steel depends on what you want in a knife.-Cliff
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know that there are uses for a coarse grain knife steel. The micro-serration sometimes works as an advantage. Also, as you say, blade geometry is for sure a factor. But I'm only stating my very own preference, and that is a "small carbide" steel that can be made razor sharp.

//Jay
 
JayAndersson said:
But I'm only stating my very own preference, and that is a "small carbide" steel that can be made razor sharp.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I tend to prefer the same. As I have reduced edge cross sections to their minimum I find less of a need for a really coarse finish. As I have become more familiar with sharpening I have also tended to keep my knives sharper as well which will again tend to favor the low carbide steels. The nice thing is that all of those steels are actually cheap, easy to grind and heat treat. One of the few times when the best materials are actually the cheapest.

-Cliff
 
Would lawn mower blades, especially from 10 years ago or older, qualify as tool steel? Some old mower blades I've seen turned into spear points, etc., sure were tough pieces of steel. What kind of steel were they typically made from?

Jeff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top