What was the Western W49 Bowie based on?

H

helobite

Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
229
I am not going to paste a picture of my Western W49, which I purchased around 1970. I got mine from the KMart in Carlisle Blvd in Albuquerque, (permanently closed!) and since there was nothing special about the thing, I beat it all to heck. Chopping, throwing it into trees, etc. If I had known how collectable the things would turn out to be, I would have taken better care of it. Maybe. I never expected to live so long anyway.

However, someone took care of this one:

bgTXGLh.jpg


I recently purchased a Bear and Sons Gold Rush Bowie, which is a close copy, but made from 12C27N steel.


ZfAlsyi.jpg


I just looked through my Norm Flayderman book: The Bowie Knife and tried to find a historic antecedent. I did not find anything close. The W49 is wide, and there are wide historic bowies, but given the belly, huge cross guards, I did not find even an 80% similiar knife. I measured the blade on the Bear Bowie, it is about 9.5 inches.

So, does anyone know of a pre 1900 knife that is close to the Western W49, or is this purely a 20th century creation?
 
I believe the Collins "Marine Raider" Bowie was the primary inspiration for the W49, however there may be more to the story. I know these were famously used by Marines in the Pacific theater of WWII but I'm not sure if they were ever issued or strictly for private purchase.

db63c2823fbb72f05eee38d269967f3f.jpg
 
H helobite

As an aside, how do you like the Bear & Son version?
A lot of folks have complained of so-so manufacturing quality with Bear & Son knives. I've had a couple that were very good. How is this one?
 
Here's an excellent summary of the history of the W49*: https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?t=54880

Case actually manufactured a fair number of original Marine Raider Bowies during the war. Apparently Collins didn't have the capacity to fulfill the demand so Case, among others, started pumping out the same basic design. See the above link, and also here: https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20203

Frankly, the Case XX Bowie still looks pretty close to the original, but I think the W49 is superior.

CA00286_01a.jpg



Frank, here's a thread by a fella that seems to like the Bear & Son version: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...t-about-cheaper-blades.1887547/#post-21418010


*Also, Frank, please let me know if it's not kosher to link to another forum.
 
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oldmanwilly said:
I believe the Collins "Marine Raider" Bowie was the primary inspiration for the W49, however there may be more to the story. I know these were famously used by Marines in the Pacific theater of WWII but I'm not sure if they were ever issued or strictly for private purchase.

View attachment 2018493
Click to expand...


I wish I could remember the ad I saw the Collins knife in profile, and when I saw it, but I am sure post WW2 knives like this were surplussed. There was an incredible amount of military surplus on the market, going well into the early 1970's. There was so much newly made stuff on the market tailored to people's perceptions of the Old West. Which were based on on what people saw in Western Movies and TV shows. Which was not accurate at all. And the Western W49 was introduced on the market in 1964ish. The W49 could have based on someone's memory of the WW2 Marine Raider knife, but tailored to look like something Cowboy ish or and with the 1849 Gold Rush period. Maybe W49, was Western 49er. Few people know when the Cowboy cattle drive period started, which was post Civil War.

As to how I think of my knife, I just uncorked the thing. Have not chopped anything. It seems thinner than my W49, but I would have to dig the W49 out to confirm. I like the cocobolo wood, the handle is a bit blocky and wide for my hand. I have short fingers. But it is not bad.

I am going to say that I always thought this knife pattern was not practical. It is not a good underbrush clearing knife: too short. The guards get in the way of slicing on a flat surface. It is heavy, not something you would want to carry on a forced march when you already have 100lbs of gear on your back. This is a fantasy knife built around fantasy killing. There is no doubt it would slash and stab very well. The wide blade would make a horrible wound if thrust in the abdomen. Surely a stab victim would bleed out quickly.

Still, I would be very interested if there was a pattern like this that dated to the Wild West period.
 
H helobite I think Western also manufactured the original Collins pattern during the war and, for whatever reason, switched to the W49 afterward. Hopefully someone around here knows.

As for the function of the W49, mine is from 1978 and both chops and cuts extremely well. My only gripe is that the s-pattern guard is obtrusive in use and the little beak at the end of the handle is kinda sharp and hurts my pinky when chopping. These issues are easily corrected, but so far I'm reluctant to take my vintage Bowie to a grinder. It may be some wild west fantasy, but Western delivered a knife that is perfectly functional.
 
Mid late 19th Century - very early 20th -

Collins 17 ( http://www.svalbardrepublic.org/ebay/collins17-090_thumb.jpg )
Collins 18 ( https://collegehillarsenal.com/image/cache/catalog/D/EWSK-1301-8-1500x1000.jpg )
Various Cutacha Bowie Machetes based on the Collins 17 / 18 - https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/CenturionAuctions/38/735838/H5403-L309186846.jpg .
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Early 1920's century - Through early WWII -

Plainer Collins 18 - https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/ItemImages/000452/18180636_1_lg.jpeg .

Carlson Raider Bowie - https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ie-knife-with-scabbard?variant=39349777891397 (this might be a repro, but the lines are close) .

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Early WWII, the Collins was selected as a survival knife/machete, Western, Case, Kinfolks will also make them for the military a tad later in WWII -

Western Bushman BX54 Bowie - https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...-knife_1_5be3b2577d08819ff583bd7ab32e8579.jpg .

Kinfolks - https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...kinfolks-with-scabbard?variant=40052980056133 .

Case - https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/CenturionAuctions/84/719584/H5403-L282706526.jpg .

You'd also see copies made in Australia, New Zealand, India, and Theater Knife versions made during this time.

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1950s - Collins still makes the #18, all others have stopped.

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1964 - Seeing the popularity of TV and Movie Westerns, Western decides to introduce the "Western Bowie" / W-49.

That's more or less a rough history on the style.
 
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tltt said:
Mid late 19th Century - very early 20th -

Collins 17 ( http://www.svalbardrepublic.org/ebay/collins17-090_thumb.jpg )
Collins 18 ( https://collegehillarsenal.com/image/cache/catalog/D/EWSK-1301-8-1500x1000.jpg )
Various Cutacha Bowie Machetes based on the Collins 17 / 18 - https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/CenturionAuctions/38/735838/H5403-L309186846.jpg .
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Early 1920's century - Through early WWII -

Plainer Collins 18 - https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/ItemImages/000452/18180636_1_lg.jpeg .

Edson Raider Bowie - https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ie-knife-with-scabbard?variant=39349777891397 (this might be a repro, but the lines are close) .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Early WWII, the Collins was selected as a survival knife/machete, Western, Case, Kinfolks will also make them for the military a tad later in WWII

Western Bushman BX54 Bowie - https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...-knife_1_5be3b2577d08819ff583bd7ab32e8579.jpg .

Kinfolks - https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...kinfolks-with-scabbard?variant=40052980056133 .

Case - https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/CenturionAuctions/84/719584/H5403-L282706526.jpg .

You'd also see copies made in Australia, New Zealand, India, and Theater Knife versions made during this time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1950s - Collins still makes the #18, all others have stopped.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1964 - Seeing the popularity of TV and Movie Westerns, Western decides to introduce the "Western Bowie" / W-49.

That's more or less a rough history on the style.
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Great reply, I appreciate the effort.

Looking at the Spanish-American War Collins one can certainly see elements from it in the WW2 bowies, and then the W49. The W49 is much closer to the V44 No 18 knife than to the Spanish American War knife. I would claim the V44 was the inspiration for the W49, given that an earlier version has not been found yet.
 
The Western WW2 era Bx-54 Bushman clone of the Collins #18 Pequeno Machete was the direct ancestor of the "Western Bowie" introduced in 1964.

When the Western Bowie was introduced in 1964, Western's in-house model number was W49. Around 1967/1968, Western chose to replace the advertising model name from Bowie to W49, replacing Bowie with W49 as the stamp model name.

Western did not make any "W49-like Bowies" from when manufacture ended near the end of WW2 until 1964, when the "Western Bowie" was introduced.

Western's manufacture of the Bx54 ceased whenever the 592 Bailout kit survival knife changed from the Collins #18 Pequeno Machete and clones to the CASE V44 fixed blade machete. The CASE V44 fixed blade machete was the ONLY V44. The Collins #18 Pequeno Machetes and clones were improperly designated as V44s by knife collectors sometime after WW2.
 
This fits in here as well:

Photos - Western Bowie USA

One of my recent finds, an early Western Bowie from around 1965: Older thread about this knife: http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/help-identify-my-w49-age-and-other-information.1330326/#post-15274576
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com
 
Before
w49.jpg


After

LargeLeather-13_zpsd2d7d903.jpg

Guard bobbed, widest point of the spine lowered 3/16”, handle thinned & “melted”.

All as per Bill Bagwell’s mods originally in SOF magazine.

Now it’s a much more useful camp knife.
 
I thought I would post a picture of my abused W49 Bowie. Now that I think of it, I probably purchased it by 1972, I do remember it was well before the fall of Vietnam. So it is a "Vietnam era" W49. I threw it into trees, beat on things. The guard got loose so I beat on the sides with a hammer to tighten it up, wrapped copper wire between the guard and the grip, then filled whatever gap existed with epoxy. I left it in its scabbard for decades and the carbon steel has rusted.

tHREBKd.jpg



How was I to know that Western knives would go away, K Mart stores disappear, and this become collectable if in original condition?
 
I refurbished this one for a friend. His uncle and then his father both carried it on tours of duty. It’s name is “Mike”. I would feel very comfortable with one of these as a primary survival knife.

Before:
845BAA85-3F60-41A6-909C-C207A64855BB.jpeg
After:
2FEB139D-17AB-46B0-848A-E1D4364BF633.jpeg7E35EA78-BE8E-48B6-AE6C-30AD515F4BF6.jpeg
 
helobite said:
I wish I could remember the ad I saw the Collins knife in profile, and when I saw it, but I am sure post WW2 knives like this were surplussed. There was an incredible amount of military surplus on the market, going well into the early 1970's. There was so much newly made stuff on the market tailored to people's perceptions of the Old West. Which were based on on what people saw in Western Movies and TV shows. Which was not accurate at all. And the Western W49 was introduced on the market in 1964ish. The W49 could have based on someone's memory of the WW2 Marine Raider knife, but tailored to look like something Cowboy ish or and with the 1849 Gold Rush period. Maybe W49, was Western 49er. Few people know when the Cowboy cattle drive period started, which was post Civil War.

As to how I think of my knife, I just uncorked the thing. Have not chopped anything. It seems thinner than my W49, but I would have to dig the W49 out to confirm. I like the cocobolo wood, the handle is a bit blocky and wide for my hand. I have short fingers. But it is not bad.

I am going to say that I always thought this knife pattern was not practical. It is not a good underbrush clearing knife: too short. The guards get in the way of slicing on a flat surface. It is heavy, not something you would want to carry on a forced march when you already have 100lbs of gear on your back. This is a fantasy knife built around fantasy killing. There is no doubt it would slash and stab very well. The wide blade would make a horrible wound if thrust in the abdomen. Surely a stab victim would bleed out quickly.

Still, I would be very interested if there was a pattern like this that dated to the Wild West period.
Click to expand...
As far as accuracy goes, the actual knife used by Jim Bowie in the duel that made him famous (Sandbar duel), was quoted as appearing like a large butcher's knife, and not at all like the clip point blade that has become common place. After the news of that duel hit newspapers, everyone "wanted a knife like Bowie's". Bowie was heavily wounded in that duel, (shot and stabbed), and was recovering in New Orleans, Louisiana, where he met, and befriended then famous stage actor Edwin Forrest. Bowie gifted that knife to Forrest, which he incorporated into his stage act. When Forrest retired, he had the knife and some newspaper clippings framed and hung on a wall in his home, in Bryn Mar, PA. In 1985 the Forrest estate went up for auction, and the American Bowie Knife Society knew about the auction, and collector William Williamson attended and purchased the knife. So, knife makers had produced "Bowie" knives, without ever having seen the knife, and no knife maker had seen the knife, until after that auction in 1985. This is a paraphrase of Mike Stewart's comments on their Edwin Forrest Bowie, made by Bark River knives. You can find a photo of the "Edwin Forrest Bowie" (the actual style of knife used by Jim Bowie) on DLT Trading or Knives ship free, or on eBay.
 
Mark MacIver said:
As far as accuracy goes, the actual knife used by Jim Bowie in the duel that made him famous (Sandbar duel), was quoted as appearing like a large butcher's knife, and not at all like the clip point blade that has become common place. After the news of that duel hit newspapers, everyone "wanted a knife like Bowie's". Bowie was heavily wounded in that duel, (shot and stabbed), and was recovering in New Orleans, Louisiana, where he met, and befriended then famous stage actor Edwin Forrest. Bowie gifted that knife to Forrest, which he incorporated into his stage act. When Forrest retired, he had the knife and some newspaper clippings framed and hung on a wall in his home, in Bryn Mar, PA. In 1985 the Forrest estate went up for auction, and the American Bowie Knife Society knew about the auction, and collector William Williamson attended and purchased the knife. So, knife makers had produced "Bowie" knives, without ever having seen the knife, and no knife maker had seen the knife, until after that auction in 1985. This is a paraphrase of Mike Stewart's comments on their Edwin Forrest Bowie, made by Bark River knives. You can find a photo of the "Edwin Forrest Bowie" (the actual style of knife used by Jim Bowie) on DLT Trading or Knives ship free, or on eBay.
Click to expand...

I watched a Youtube program on the Edwin Forrest Bowie knife. If any knife can be traced back to Jim Bowie, the Edwin Forrest has the best claim to date. It is not the Sand bar knife, as that knife was described by Jim Bowie's brother and it had a shorter blade. What other knives Jim Bowie owned, we will never know. He might have owned a bunch, and gave away a bunch, for all we know. We do know famous gunfighters, such a Wyatt Earp, managed to sell a number of "authentic" Colt Single Action Army pistols, to those who badly wanted a pistol that "had been there". I am going to claim that those who were the real deal fighters, be they knife or handgun, were not that attached to their weapons. Rather it was the wannabees who are covetous for their weapons. The real deal types know it is their skill, their ability, their judgement that pulled them though, and the knife or handgun is just some device they used. And the real deal is them, not some inanimate object.

If you ever get to meet World Champions, they are proudest of their performance, and the medals and stuff are just things that are on a shelf. But the wannabees are Ga Ga about the trophies.
 
The Edwin Forrest IS the knife Jim Bowie used at Sandbar. If you read what I wrote (while on the mend in New Orleans...) Bowie actually gifted THAT knife to Edwin Forrest, and it was described by the few who saw it as "a large butcher type knife".
 
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