What would make you want to be part of the KITH?

[Storm W]

I enjoy the concept of the KITH but often it turns into only a couple of nice knives, a few ok knives and some bad ones. I was surprised at the quality of the KITH this time but there is never any pressure to push one's self for the knife. Since it's hard to control quality most of the established makers are not interested. Is there a set of rules that could be made that would interest people into a KITH where the value is a real $400-600? I had the idea of large knives out of premium steel but I'm sure there are other things that could be done.

Does anyone have any thoughts about what would make it interesting for them but still not lead to having to have gatekeepers?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

KITHs used to be run with a set of guidelines on the knives to make and a general value range ( usually $100-200). That sort of drifted away and they can be pretty wide open sometimes. People have tried using a set choice of blade styles as the parameter. One year JT cut out blanks and people used them for the KITH knives. This didn't really work either. Another time it was suggested that there be a KITH with two or three levels of skill and value. That became a fiasco. A Newbie KITH was tried, too.

The reality is that a KITH is voluntary and you should make the best knife you can in the general range of suggested types and values. New makers (unless highly talented) should sit a KITH out and wait until they have more refined skills. If you enter a KITH wanting to get a knife worth $300-400 for a knife you made of equal value you will not enjoy the KITH. Enter one for the fun of making a knife for an unknown person and not having any idea who or what you will get in return. If that isn't an acceptable deal, then don't enter.

 

[Skiller1nc]

I participated in the kith last year and would have this year as well but work was just too busy. I knew going in a could get a knife of lower quality than mine. My reason for participating though was a hope at getting my knife in the hands of an experienced maker who could really critique it and help me become a better maker. That didn't happen, and in fact I even had to ship my knife outside the country and it cost a lot more. I still enjoyed the process and I think that's why people should want to or may want to participate. Not always to get a cool knife but to get some good feedback on your own work.

 

[Storm W]

KITHs used to be run with a set of guidelines on the knives to make and a general value range ( usually $100-200). That sort of drifted away and they can be pretty wide open sometimes. People have tried using a set choice of blade styles as the parameter. One year JT cut out blanks and people used them for the KITH knives. This didn't really work either. Another time it was suggested that there be a KITH with two or three levels of skill and value. That became a fiasco. A Newbie KITH was tried, too.

The reality is that a KITH is voluntary and you should make the best knife you can in the general range of suggested types and values. New makers (unless highly talented) should sit a KITH out and wait until they have more refined skills. If you enter a KITH wanting to get a knife worth $300-400 for a knife you made of equal value you will not enjoy the KITH. Enter one for the fun of making a knife for an unknown person and not having any idea who or what you will get in return. If that isn't an acceptable deal, then don't enter.

I am aware. For a time there was some emphasis on growth where you got to see how another knife maker took a hard look at your knife and you also got to play with another knife by someone else. A more advanced KITH has been talked about but then how do you police it. I was testing the waters to see if there was a way to make it more attractive to people other than hobby builders. My thought was that by raising the dollar amount maybe a bigger range of makers would find it attractive. I was thinking that if the rule set forced some parts of construction such as stabilized materials and oven heat treatment that might help. I also thought that the ability to make a large but simple knife with premium materials would allow less (but not unskilled) makers an option to keep their knives in the same price range.

It doesn't sound like there is much appetite for that sort of thing. I think a higher end KITH would have to be by invite only to have a chance to work.

 

[Richard338]

I don't think that specifying the materials is the answer. There are makers who can make a masterpiece from relatively cheap components, and many of us who can make a mess of some high dollar parts.

 

[Ken H>]

Enter one for the fun of making a knife for an unknown person and not having any idea who or what you will get in return. If that isn't an acceptable deal, then don't enter.

I think Stacy summed it up nicely there. Enter with the idea of having fun and don't worry about what you're going to get in return. I do think setting a type of parameter such as a "petty chef" size kitchen knife, or a "skinner of 4" to 6" blade", etc would be suitable to avoid somebody making a 10" chef and getting a 3" paring knife in return.

 

[rhino]

Would someone please define and explain "KITH" to those of us who are new to the term?

 

[Storm W]

Would someone please define and explain "KITH" to those of us who are new to the term?

It stands for knives in a hat. Everyone makes a knife and then there is a random drawing and you send your knife to someone and then get one in return from someone else. It's a bit of fun and a nice way to get some feedback about your work.

 

[Storm W]

I think Stacy summed it up nicely there. Enter with the idea of having fun and don't worry about what you're going to get in return. I do think setting a type of parameter such as a "petty chef" size kitchen knife, or a "skinner of 4" to 6" blade", etc would be suitable to avoid somebody making a 10" chef and getting a 3" paring knife in return.

Somehow I am not communicating my point all that well but I think I got my answer. I was wondering if we can make it more appealing to a broader crowd. Yes it is about having fun. But for better makers it's not very appealing because they are mostly just making a gift for a stranger. I'm not putting myself in that group and saying that there is no chance that what I am getting is going to be less than what I put in I'm saying that for many makers that is the truth and because of that they don't participate. Time is the biggest expense and it would be worth it for me to break out a big chunk of nice steel and make something that hits the dollar amount if it would mean we could get more experienced makers who sell there work at that price point. Right now it is not very appealing for them to take the time to build a nice knife only to get back something that they would only use to cut sandpaper with. I am not referring to this particular KITH I'm talking about where it has been going over time. I have talked with Willie and he has told me that makers often back out when they see a few low quality knives. In past years people have felt like some people are just trying to get a free knife. I don't that is true. I think that people just suck at being honest with themselves about how good they really are. It doesn't work to try to police the KITH and people get hurt feelings and that isn't very fun. We don't have the participation that we did in the past on this site and I was hoping maybe some rule tweaks or something could make the KITH appealing to those old timers. I think my answer is no. If a KITH was going to be done for nicer knives it would need to be an invite only thing. Once we are talking about more than a simple knife most people can't afford to take the risk that they wouldn't get something of a similar value.

 

[rhino]

It stands for knives in a hat. Everyone makes a knife and then there is a random drawing and you send your knife to someone and then get one in return from someone else. It's a bit of fun and a nice way to get some feedback about your work.

Thanks!

 

[weo]

I'm not sure if my thoughts will contribute, but you asked for thoughts....so here goes. **Warning, this may turn into a philosophical commentary**

One of the problems(?) that I see with how the KITH seems to have evolved (and Stacy commented on this earlier) is that the conversation/motivation seems to have become more about "What will I get...?" instead of "How much fun will I have or what will I learn...?"

As with everything in life, when we focus on what we think we should get, we set ourselves up for disappointment. When one focuses on what could be learned, then one will never get disappointed.

Also, from a personal standpoint, I am less excited than I was about the KITHs because I'm not a collector and already have more knives than I could ever use.

 

[Taz]

I jumped in on the KITH to get some feedback about my stuff. For me, it's about getting feedback from another maker since I am getting back into it and trying new things, like convex grinding kitchen knives and making handle material from fabric and carbon fiber fabrics. I did a KITH type thing several years ago on another forum I think and it was great. I was a brand new maker back then and sent 2 knives to make sure the person got their $$'s worth. I got a knife from another maker that I absolutely loved!

 

[Storm W]

The learning side of it is what I'm interested in. It's one of the few ways I will be able to handle another makers work as well as get a good look at what I can improve on. My reasoning was how can it be done so good makers aren't just having to give and not get anything out of it.

 

[Justin W]

Maybe we can do a sort of round robin style competition KITH? Each quarter we can have a group making a style of knife, vote on the best per quarter (bracket elimination style) then have a final 4 showdown at the end of the year. The swap would then be done by rating, winner and runner up gets first crack followed by random draws by elimination round (final 4, then elite 8, sweet 16, etc.).

This could help people get a feel for where their skills rank. Spread over a year, it could allow maximum participation based on when makers have time.

Categories could be, Chef, EDC, camp/hunter, Bowie/fighter/chopper. With some ground specs defined for each.

 

[Natlek]

Somehow I am not communicating my point all that well but I think I got my answer. I was wondering if we can make it more appealing to a broader crowd. Yes it is about having fun. But for better makers it's not very appealing because they are mostly just making a gift for a stranger. I'm not putting myself in that group and saying that there is no chance that what I am getting is going to be less than what I put in I'm saying that for many makers that is the truth and because of that they don't participate. Time is the biggest expense and it would be worth it for me to break out a big chunk of nice steel and make something that hits the dollar amount if it would mean we could get more experienced makers who sell there work at that price point. Right now it is not very appealing for them to take the time to build a nice knife only to get back something that they would only use to cut sandpaper with. I am not referring to this particular KITH I'm talking about where it has been going over time. I have talked with Willie and he has told me that makers often back out when they see a few low quality knives. In past years people have felt like some people are just trying to get a free knife. I don't that is true. I think that people just suck at being honest with themselves about how good they really are. It doesn't work to try to police the KITH and people get hurt feelings and that isn't very fun. We don't have the participation that we did in the past on this site and I was hoping maybe some rule tweaks or something could make the KITH appealing to those old timers. I think my answer is no. If a KITH was going to be done for nicer knives it would need to be an invite only thing. Once we are talking about more than a simple knife most people can't afford to take the risk that they wouldn't get something of a similar value.

My friend , do not put the price of the knife in the same basket with KITH. If Nick Wheeler make Bowie knife from W2 steel and ironwood handle for KITH and other maker make same Bowie knife in Damasteel and ironwood handle , then I make same Bowie in Damasteel and ironwood /but I ruin two blank in Damasteel and I ruin several piece of ironwood trying to make the perfect , which knife of the three of us worth the most ?
Stacy is right ..................Enter one for the fun of making a knife for an unknown person and not having any idea who or what you will get in return. If that isn't an acceptable deal, then don't enter.
Just my opinion about KITH
From what I see i don t like or understand why with such a long deadline some of them cancel participation with various excuses......when a knife can be made in one weekend ?

 

[Nick-D]

My friend , do not put the price of the knife in the same basket with KITH. If Nick Wheeler make Bowie knife from W2 steel and ironwood handle for KITH and other maker make same Bowie knife in Damasteel and ironwood handle , then I make same Bowie in Damasteel and ironwood /but I ruin two blank in Damasteel and I ruin several piece of ironwood trying to make the perfect , which knife of the three of us worth the most ?
Stacy is right ..................Enter one for the fun of making a knife for an unknown person and not having any idea who or what you will get in return. If that isn't an acceptable deal, then don't enter.
Just my opinion about KITH
From what I see i don t like or understand why with such a long deadline some of them cancel participation with various excuses......when a knife can be made in one weekend ?

I think its less about what you spend building it and more about trying to ensure that the finished products are of good quality and value to entice some of the more established makers to participating.

Trying to minimize the chances of making a $500 supersteel hunter and getting a poorly heat treated prison shank in return.

I will continue to participate as I don't get much chance for capable people to review my knives, and don't honestly care that much what I get back as long as it cuts. Unless I think I can't complete something that is of some level of value at which point I will bow out

 

[Natlek]

I think its less about what you spend building it and more about trying to ensure that the finished products are of good quality and value to entice some of the more established makers to participating.

Trying to minimize the chances of making a $500 supersteel hunter and getting a poorly heat treated prison shank in return.

I will continue to participate as I don't get much chance for capable people to review my knives, and don't honestly care that much what I get back as long as it cuts. Unless I think I can't complete something that is of some level of value at which point I will bow out

All three knife are perfectly crafted .Which one of them worth the most ? The real value of the knife is in the knifemaker name my friend . Bowie from leaf spring made by Nick Wheeler will worth thirty times more than mine in Damasteel, that's my point.
If you want capable people to review your knives you don t need KITH ,send them as a gift .

 

[Natlek]

I have talked with Willie and he has told me that makers often back out when they see a few low quality knives.

Shame ! What did they expect? Knife from Buster Warenski ?

 

[Nick-D]

All three knife are perfectly crafted .Which one of them worth the most ? The real value of the knife is in the knifemaker name my friend . Bowie from leaf spring made by Nick Wheeler will worth thirty times more than mine in Damasteel, that's my point.
If you want capable people to review your knives you don t need KITH ,send them as a gift .

Yeah I get what you are saying, but we're really talking less market value and more intrinsic value and quality, ie you are receiving a decent quality product with an equal level of time and investment taken in building it.

To be honest It's probably not able to be done without setting an entry exam to ensure work quality/capability is up to scratch in which case I would definately be excluded

I certainly appreciate Storms efforts and thoughts to try up participation.

 

[Dominick Maone]

Someone who sells knives for a living won’t get much in return, even if they get a really nice knife. They can’t sell the knife they receive, so although they may be getting a knife worth $500, they really lose $500 by making a knife and sending it to someone instead of selling it.