I don't quite get it I guess. So many other knife guys constantly tell me "I can't use anything other than S30V, what are you doing with that piece of crap that has 8Cr13MoV? What are the pros and cons? I say if I can sharpen it to a razors edge and get a solid use out of it why bother paying an extra $45 for a magical steel? Also I heard it's prone to cracking so...allsimsayin'.
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What's so special about S30V?
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Ankerson
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You can use anything you want......
That said the difference in steels isn't all that makes the difference in cost as knives in the other steel are generally on the low end cost wise in general.
No, it's not prone to cracking.....
Yes S30V will be somewhat harder to sharpen than the other steel due to the increased wear resistance, but it will also hold an edge much longer so it's a trade off.
Magical?
No, there are no magical steels....
What S30V really is though, it's one of the best all around general use steels available currently, but that assuming a quality knife from a reputable company so it would be heat treated correctly.
That said here are two knives in S30V, one costs a lot more than the other so S30V covers a pretty large spectrum in knives.
$400+ for the top one (CRK ZAAN) and $145 for the bottom one (Spyderco Military).
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S30V just sounds good. lol Ankerson got it right and I do not know a ton about steels, but I do know that much. There is nothing wrong with 8cr13mov, I have Kershaws that I use for EDC with that steel. S30V is quite an upgrade though, I still love the VG-10 on my Spydercos too. You get trade offs with sharpening to edge holding capabilities. I do not like getting any lower end steel than 8cr13mov or 440c. It does come down to what company is producing a knife with a certain steel.
S30V has 40X as much Vanadium as 8Cr13MoV. Vanadium forms one of the hardest carbides that is soluble in steel. Vanadium Carbide has a Rockwell hardness (C scale) of about 82. The blade that holds the hard carbides may only have hardness of 59HRC. It is like putting hard stones in cement to give it more wear resistance.
Also, the S30V is made by a powder metallurgy process which results in a higher purity steel, a finer grain structure, and a more uniform composition. The material can be taken to a higher overall HRC with less likelihood of chipping. $45 isn't to much to pay to get all the additional performance (and the magic).
Also, the S30V is made by a powder metallurgy process which results in a higher purity steel, a finer grain structure, and a more uniform composition. The material can be taken to a higher overall HRC with less likelihood of chipping. $45 isn't to much to pay to get all the additional performance (and the magic).
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Its not prone to cracking, its actually a rather tough steel and has proven itself in numerous large fixed blades. Its has pretty good corrosion resistance, great wear resistance, and good toughness.
Its not that it excels in any one area, its just a good choice for many different types of knives.
Its not that it excels in any one area, its just a good choice for many different types of knives.
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I think people have said that it is prone to chipping compared to some others. That's because it's a harder steel. Hardness refers to a steel's resistance to deformation. Toughness refers to how much a steel will take before it breaks. To get one you have to sacrifice the other. A rubber band is tough: you can bend it and stretch it a huge amount before it breaks. A coffee mug is hard: you're going to have to work hard to make it compress. It'd break first. It's kind of a brittleness argument.
If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I'm going off of what I remember from my materials class two years ago.
If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I'm going off of what I remember from my materials class two years ago.
It sounds like you are ready for Blade Materials 101. I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but materials are probably what interests me most about knives, and not just the blades, but the handles, liners, and other components as well. Do a search to learn about toughness, edge retention (wear resistance), and corrosion resistance, and how an increase in one may be a trade-off for another.
alphaknifesupply.com is a great resource for learning all of this and has links to all of the data sheets for each blade steel. The following is from the Crucible CPM S30V data sheet:
"CPM S30V is a martensitic stainless steel designed to offer
the best combination of toughness, wear resistance and
corrosion resistance. Its chemistry has been specially
balanced to promote the formation of vanadium carbides
which are harder and more effective than chromium carbides
in providing wear resistance. CPM S30V offers substantial
improvement in toughness over other high hardness
steels such as 440C and D2, and its corrosion resistance
is equal to or better than 440C in various environments.
The CPM process produces very homogeneous, high
quality steel characterized by superior dimensional stability,
grindability, and toughness compared to steels produced
by conventional processes."
To better understand the importance of that last part, or rather the advantage of using a "powdered" steel, think about it this way. If you made part of a roadway or driveway with very large rocks and another with very small rocks, and then drove over it enough to tear it up, you would see the part with the much larger rocks tear up faster. Once one rock is broken out of the "large" rock section, you'd have a big hole in the driveway. Conversely, if you broke off rocks from the "small" rock section, you'd still have a much smoother driveway and it would not cause as much damage to what remained and would be easier to "fix", or in the sense of blade, sharpen back to a consistent edge along its length. So, with powder steels you get much smaller, more consistent sized carbides in the blade (the small rocks) that not only wear better but can be sharpened to a finer edge. Higher end steels often contain "better" carbides as well, such as vanadium replacing some of the chromium carbides, but that is tomorrow's lesson.
Clear as mud, right? Check out the data sheets. The introduction paragraphs can teach you a ton.
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G10 Titan, that driveway analogy is one of the best I've heard to explain the significance of carbide size. Well done. I'm going to remember that one. Mind if I quote you?
S30V is considered "better" because of the abrasion resistance. It keeps an edge much longer, but it takes a lot more time and effort to get it back. "Good" knife steel has high abrasion resistance as one of it's goals - which means grinding and finishing the blade is exponentially harder. It takes a lot more labor and abrasion materials to get it into shape.
The steel itself is a bit more expensive in the blanks, it's a lot more expensive as a finished product. At this point comes the catch - do you need that high an abrasion resistance?
Most butcher knives used in processing are "lower" grade steels, and the butcher keeps them sharp in use to prevent work slowdowns. They use a steel to redress the edge in use and keep on working. In pocket knives, a "lower" grade steel has to be sharpened more often to keep the edge keen, but is it really an issue for EDC users?
I've used and carried a S30V knife in a machine shop, it sure kept an edge getting dragged across metal cutting shrink wrap or opening stuff. I've yet to get it back to shaving sharp, tho. It's not dull, but it's not scary they way I can keep a 154CM blade. Although 154CM is a good steel, since the introduction of S30V it's not longer the "best." However, in daily use, it certainly is better for me, and I can keep it sharper than S30V with just a few swipes on a crock rod. For a daily EDC knife, I get a sharper edge and can use it more often than S30V.
Others have the same issues - they can use and keep an inexpensive import steel sharper on a daily basis with less time on the stones getting it back to shaving sharp. It's a matter of spending as much as you want to get as little maintenance as you want.
Beyond that, the choice of steel moves into bragmanship. "I've got S30V and you don't." This is the locker room measuring contest where some players attempt to justify a more expensive blade material for social status, not actual use. On the extreme end of things, you see it being used in knives where the benefits are mostly never seen in use, such as large outdoor knives. When you increase blade thickness and size, the overall improvement of performance isn't as significant - the percentages become a lot more incremental. That's why larger tools come in lower alloys, plus the expense in shaping them gets even higher. A 12" Bowie in S30V might be considered a top grade knife, but it would take a lot more to get it to a final finish, and one defect means it's a lot more loss, too. As the performance diminishes to incremental steps, the expense becomes geometric.
Not many makers want to put in $100's of dollars in labor to fashion a high end knife in mass production knowing their % of errors is going to cost them X3 in defects. It's affordable in small blades, it's expensive in big ones. For those that want to pony up the bucks to get one, they are out there, but it doesn't mean they are "better" compared to a less expensive high carbon steel blade. Paying a lot of money for one knife, vs having more of the less expensive ones is a hard choice. It means putting off other discretionary purchases. It's like insisting that you want a Rolex Submariner for skin diving - you could get a Seiko 007 and the difference would buy your tanks, gear, and a round trip ticket to the Bahamas.
Which are you? Some dive, and some look like divers. A very small group do both, most of us can't really afford the bling items, we just need a serviceable tool. Right now the sharpest blades I carry are a BM Osborne Risk, and the one on a Leatherman Sidekick. It's getting used a lot and it's staying sharp, low alloy beater blade that it is.
The steel itself is a bit more expensive in the blanks, it's a lot more expensive as a finished product. At this point comes the catch - do you need that high an abrasion resistance?
Most butcher knives used in processing are "lower" grade steels, and the butcher keeps them sharp in use to prevent work slowdowns. They use a steel to redress the edge in use and keep on working. In pocket knives, a "lower" grade steel has to be sharpened more often to keep the edge keen, but is it really an issue for EDC users?
I've used and carried a S30V knife in a machine shop, it sure kept an edge getting dragged across metal cutting shrink wrap or opening stuff. I've yet to get it back to shaving sharp, tho. It's not dull, but it's not scary they way I can keep a 154CM blade. Although 154CM is a good steel, since the introduction of S30V it's not longer the "best." However, in daily use, it certainly is better for me, and I can keep it sharper than S30V with just a few swipes on a crock rod. For a daily EDC knife, I get a sharper edge and can use it more often than S30V.
Others have the same issues - they can use and keep an inexpensive import steel sharper on a daily basis with less time on the stones getting it back to shaving sharp. It's a matter of spending as much as you want to get as little maintenance as you want.
Beyond that, the choice of steel moves into bragmanship. "I've got S30V and you don't." This is the locker room measuring contest where some players attempt to justify a more expensive blade material for social status, not actual use. On the extreme end of things, you see it being used in knives where the benefits are mostly never seen in use, such as large outdoor knives. When you increase blade thickness and size, the overall improvement of performance isn't as significant - the percentages become a lot more incremental. That's why larger tools come in lower alloys, plus the expense in shaping them gets even higher. A 12" Bowie in S30V might be considered a top grade knife, but it would take a lot more to get it to a final finish, and one defect means it's a lot more loss, too. As the performance diminishes to incremental steps, the expense becomes geometric.
Not many makers want to put in $100's of dollars in labor to fashion a high end knife in mass production knowing their % of errors is going to cost them X3 in defects. It's affordable in small blades, it's expensive in big ones. For those that want to pony up the bucks to get one, they are out there, but it doesn't mean they are "better" compared to a less expensive high carbon steel blade. Paying a lot of money for one knife, vs having more of the less expensive ones is a hard choice. It means putting off other discretionary purchases. It's like insisting that you want a Rolex Submariner for skin diving - you could get a Seiko 007 and the difference would buy your tanks, gear, and a round trip ticket to the Bahamas.
Which are you? Some dive, and some look like divers. A very small group do both, most of us can't really afford the bling items, we just need a serviceable tool. Right now the sharpest blades I carry are a BM Osborne Risk, and the one on a Leatherman Sidekick. It's getting used a lot and it's staying sharp, low alloy beater blade that it is.
Absolutely! However, I realized last night when I went to bed that I didn't really specify that this analogy concerned the edge and the way the edge wears. To someone simply thinking about the entire blade, it could be confusing.
I'm just happy someone actually read that! I appreciate the kind words.
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Some reference info about knife steels from a famous Bladesmith wizard, Mr. Joe Talmadge.
http://www.zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml
http://www.zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml
While I have several S30V steel knives, I chose each one for the knife, not the steel. I would have been happy (happier maybe) to have those same designs in different steels if they cost less. But I am pretty impressed with S30V. Tough stuff to be sure. None of my EDC knives are S30V however because I am a toucher-upper. For that, VG-10 is great!
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If 6ou don't know what is special about S30V then you clearly have never thought to yourself "You know, this reprofiling is going too quickly. Ho2 can I make this take EÑTRIELY TOO DAMN LONG?" As a man who has sharpened pretty severe chips out of S30V I can tell you that this steel is rubbish. It took me over an hour with an 80 grit belt to establish the edge on my late ZT 350, and recently took me over 5 hours with a stone to reprofile my ZT 550. I dislike the steel very much.
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If it took you over an hour to sharpen an S30V blade with an 80 grit belt you're doing something wrong. It wouldn't take you over 5 hours with a stone either assuming you're using the right stone for the job. It takes me all of about 10 minutes to set a bevel on my S30v blades with a 120 grit silicon carbide stone. It's really not that hard to sharpen if you know what you're doing.
Ankerson
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Not sure what the perceived problems are with S30V.
I have found it to be one of the most useful all around general use steels that I have used.
Not really all that hard to sharpen with the proper tools and ability, nothing really expensive is really needed. Something like a Medium Norton Sic Carbide stone will make quick work out of sharpening/reprofiling, and ceramics make for quick touch ups.
I use S30V more than all other steels combined for general EDC/work.
Will take a screaming sharp hair whittling edge without too much trouble, but then again it's proper equipment and technique more than anything else.
Using just a few seconds on a ceramic rod will bring the edge right back to screaming sharp.
I have found it to be one of the most useful all around general use steels that I have used.
Not really all that hard to sharpen with the proper tools and ability, nothing really expensive is really needed. Something like a Medium Norton Sic Carbide stone will make quick work out of sharpening/reprofiling, and ceramics make for quick touch ups.
I use S30V more than all other steels combined for general EDC/work.
Will take a screaming sharp hair whittling edge without too much trouble, but then again it's proper equipment and technique more than anything else.
Using just a few seconds on a ceramic rod will bring the edge right back to screaming sharp.
stabman
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Is answered by:
I think he may have taken an 80 grit belt to his keyboard judging by his post too.
I first started using S30V when it first came out, and the couple of knives that I tested gave me the impression that's it's a junk steel. I never had chipping issues, but the S30V knives I tried wouldn't get a good edge, and lost it almost immediately. I sent these off to a fellow forumite and he agree they were about as good as using pot metal. So my opinion of S30V is very low, to put it nicely...
I haven't gotten any S30V knives since then, got tired of wasting my money (they weren't cheap knives). I might have gotten these knives before they had the heat treat down pat, but this old dog just doesn't trust it. I'm freeing up the market so that you all can get more...
I haven't gotten any S30V knives since then, got tired of wasting my money (they weren't cheap knives). I might have gotten these knives before they had the heat treat down pat, but this old dog just doesn't trust it. I'm freeing up the market so that you all can get more...
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I think he may have taken an 80 grit belt to his keyboard judging by his post too.
No way man. That's at least a 30 grit paragraph. Judging by the numbers, I'd say it was ceramic.