What's the deal with Zytel?

Joined
Feb 4, 2006
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Hey, I'm sure this has been covered before, but I was wondering, What is Zytel; or what's different about it from say- plain old plastic you'd see in the handle of some $12 p.o.s.?

I know that FRN and G-10 are made up of different materials, and as such are alot stronger, chemical resistant ect. But as I'm looking at a ka-bar dozier im wondering- what, if anything is special about this zytel handle?

-sorry if this has been beaten to death in the past.
 
Zytel is DuPont's name for several grades of Nylon polymers. Usually the versions used for knives are loaded with chopped glass fibers. That makes them FRN (Fiber Reinforced Nylon). Not all FRN handles are the same. The properties vary somewhat depending on the particular grade of Nylon and the amount of chopped fibers used. Zytel is emphasized because the Zytel line is top grade for nylon.

G10 is a different beastie. It is glass fabric impregnated with epoxy resin.
 
Zytel is a DuPont brand name for fiberglas/nylon formulations. There's a bunch of different Zytel formulations, depending on the application it's used for.

FRN is Fiberglas reinforced Nylon, which is the same as Zytel, but without DuPont's brand name.

G-10 is a woven glass fiber impregnated with epoxy resins.
 
G-10 is a fiberglass, similar to FR-4, which is the fiberglass circuit boards are made from.

Zytel technically only refers to the plastic itself, a nylon made by DuPont. It comes in different formulas, which also may be reinforced with other various fillers, such as fiberglass, mineral, or even Kevlar (also a DuPont product), or not all all.

Most Zytels are FRNs, at least that we see used in knife handles.

Sorry if I'm getting a bit pedantic...
 
G-10 is a fiberglass, similar to FR-4, which is the fiberglass circuit boards are made from.

Zytel technically only refers to the plastic itself, a nylon made by DuPont. It comes in different formulas, which also may be reinforced with other various fillers, such as fiberglass, mineral, or even Kevlar (also a DuPont product), or not all all.

Most Zytels are FRNs, at least that we see used in knife handles.

Sorry if I'm getting a bit pedantic...

Nope, thanks for posting that. Saves me future embarrassment for talking about FRN and Zytel as if they're different types of plastic! :thumbup:

Posts like these are why I read bladeforums.
 
FWIW Zytel and similar products have been around since the late 50's. One of the first products mass produced was the Remington Nylon 66 - no metal reciever, just a cover plate to hide the join line.

We now have dozens of replacement stocks, truck tool boxes, and knife handles made from the stuff. It's cheap in mass production and can be flimsy. Most knives that use it also have liners to stiffen it up. The Gerber LST is about the only one that doesn't - but it's relatively small these days.

Because of the large number of inexpensive imports, FRN suffers a lot in reputation - and even the US made products have their limitations. Aside from liners, Spyderco quit producing integral clips because they would deform and lose tension. Although some don't like to see the descriptive phrase "cold flow" used to describe the problem, nonetheless, you only get metal clips on Enduras now.

To me, FRN is a budget material used on cheap junk - and as such, becomes a significant point on whether I purchase. If the maker is willing to value engineer the handle to the cheapest possible cost, there's not much more to be said good for it.
 
Credit for the first to use fiberglass reinforced nylon knife handles must go to Blackie Collins when he was working for Peter Gerber.

sal
 
G-10 is a fiberglass, similar to FR-4, which is the fiberglass circuit boards are made from.

Is G-10 as flame resistant as FR-4? I don't know if I've ever seen a side by side comparison of G-10 and FR-4.

I've got some FR-4 lying around that I've thought of turning into handle scales for a SAK or an SS Spyderco.
 
Is G-10 as flame resistant as FR-4? I don't know if I've ever seen a side by side comparison of G-10 and FR-4.

I've got some FR-4 lying around that I've thought of turning into handle scales for a SAK or an SS Spyderco.

The only info I can find on wikipedia about G-10 is this:
a glass-reinforced epoxy laminate, a non-self-extinguishing predecessor of FR-4
So I don't know if it's flame resistant or not, but if you catch it on fire, apparently it keeps burning.

I think I remember seeing a knife in the Gallery once that had scales made from circuit boards.
 
If I had some G-10 lying around I'd try to burn it. I was just curious since FR-4 is supposedly flame, or at least heat, resistant which is why the circuit boards are made from it.

I don't remember where I got the piece that I have, but judging from the size, I assume it was going to be a motherboard.

I've thought about using an actual circuit board for scales before, but I'm troubled by how to grind off the solder points without doing too much damage to the board. It would certainly look interesting.
 
If I had some G-10 lying around I'd try to burn it. I was just curious since FR-4 is supposedly flame, or at least heat, resistant which is why the circuit boards are made from it.

I don't remember where I got the piece that I have, but judging from the size, I assume it was going to be a motherboard.

I've thought about using an actual circuit board for scales before, but I'm troubled by how to grind off the solder points without doing too much damage to the board. It would certainly look interesting.

FR-4 and G-10 are subspecies of the same specification. The terms comes from a NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) specification, specification L1, “Industrial Laminated Thermosetting Products”.

The main difference between fire-resistant and non-fire-resistant versions of epoxy glass laminates is that special additives are included in the fire resistant versions. There's a test that must be passed to get the fire resistant rating. Again, drawing on memory, (It's been a long time since I fussed with such things) I believe the test consists of cutting a 1" wide strip of cured laminate and hanging it in a vertical position. (The strip has limits on thickness as well as width.) You use a burner to light the bottom of the strip, then remove the flame. The flame can burn no more than a certain length up the strip before it burns itself out. I don't remember exactly how far it can burn and still pass. G10 won't pass. FR4 will.

The issue with G10 is that it comes from a spec designed for circuit boards. So the properties controlled by the spec are not the ones that knife folks are interested in when thinking about knife handles. It's my suspicion that most of the stuff sold as G10 for knife handles probably would not pass the G10 circuit board laminate spec and thus probably should be called "epoxy glass laminate" rather than "G10".
 
Because of the large number of inexpensive imports, FRN suffers a lot in reputation - and even the US made products have their limitations. Aside from liners, Spyderco quit producing integral clips because they would deform and lose tension. Although some don't like to see the descriptive phrase "cold flow" used to describe the problem, nonetheless, you only get metal clips on Enduras now.

what does that mean? im not familiar with that phrase.
 
what does that mean? im not familiar with that phrase.

Polymers have several characteristic temperatures associated with them.
- One is the melting temperature, the temperature at which material will flow.
- another is the "heat deflection temperature", the temperature at which, if subjected to a certain pressure the material takes a permanent deformation (flows) .
- yet one more temperature is the glass transition temperature, the temperature below which a plastic is a glassy solid that cannot flow at all. It can break, but it cannot flow.

of these temperatures, the glass transition temperature is the lowest and the melting temp is the highest. The heat deflection temperature lies between.

Engineers often use polymers at temperatures above the glass transition temperature, but below the heat deflection temperature. This practice is normally OK because the pressures involved are relatively low, so there is not a great enough combination of heat and pressure to allow the material to flow (permanently deform).

Nylon, when used under pressure and below the heat deflection temperature, can flow (take a permanent deformation). Because it is below the heat deflection temperature, it is called "cold flow" but it still takes a couple of hundred degrees and and a few thousand pounds per square inch of pressure to cause it to happen.

No plastic will so deform when used below its glass transition temperature. Since the glass transition temperature of the Nylon polymers used in FRN is at least 120F, this cannot occur. (different Nylon polymers have different glass transition temperatures. The lowest is ~120F) Even if left in the car and subjected to 150F, you would need a couple of tons of sustained pressure at that temperature to cause the Nylon to deform.

There are manufacturing defects that can cause Nylon to deform in one's pocket, but it would be due to a manufacturing defect (cold die, too short a dwell time, etc) rather than cold flow of the Nylon.
 
Great explanation. The ancedotal experience is that Endura integral clips - and others, like the LST attachment - will bend in use and lose tension, plus retain the bent shape for 48-72 hours before returning to its formed shape.

Once tension is lost, the knife works up out of the pocket and falls.

Another condition I've found is FRN grips will close up on the blade and pinch it, especially if the user is wearing typically tight fitting jeans. Liners inserted in the stack, exposed or nested, have become de riguer to prevent that, and also offer the use of a liner lock.

These experiences in the late 80's and early 90's led me to cross FRN off my list of acceptable grip materials.
 
Great explanation. The ancedotal experience is that Endura integral clips - and others, like the LST attachment - will bend in use and lose tension, plus retain the bent shape for 48-72 hours before returning to its formed shape.

Once tension is lost, the knife works up out of the pocket and falls.

Another condition I've found is FRN grips will close up on the blade and pinch it, especially if the user is wearing typically tight fitting jeans. Liners inserted in the stack, exposed or nested, have become de riguer to prevent that, and also offer the use of a liner lock.

These experiences in the late 80's and early 90's led me to cross FRN off my list of acceptable grip materials.

None of which, by the way, are issues with modern FRN-handled knives, either on knives like the Griptilian and Mini Grip and Delica that have partial or full liners respectively, or the Native, which has no liners.

I can see why someone would get turned off to the materials after experiences like that, but they're in wide use now on very highly regarded knives.
 
I'd venture a guess that Carbon Fiber is probably up there too with G10 and FRN in terms of durability.

- Mark

I talked to Reese Weiland about this. He said CF is much stronger than G10. It will even take and hold threads/screws. He's working on a run of Hawks that are the same specs as the MT Hawk from unlinered CF.
 
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