What's the definition of "open carry" as it relates to knives

[woodgood]

I have tried to search on bladeforums and on other sites but I can't find a clear definition of "open carry" as it relates to knives.

I apologize if this has been asked too many times before but I can't find a clear picture.

I know that it will be a legal definition that probably needs to be interpreted, but maybe not.

I am asking this question, I guess, from a legal standpoint as I know that everyone has their own opinions, etc. that may influence their fears, etc.

I know that most of us here are comfortable with knives and probably have no fears or concerns when seeing someone carrying a knife.

I've seen laws, or interpretation of laws, being broken down into concealed carrry and open carry.

If I were to have a fixed blade knife in a sheath on my belt would that be considered open carry?

If a sheath has a cover that clips over the knife's handle and prevents the view of the handle is that considered concealed?

I assume too that if I have a fixed blade in a sheath on my belt and a jacket on that covers it then it is probably considered concealed. Is this true?

Thanks for your thoughts on this and I apologize in advance for probably asking the same question that I am sure has been already answered but I couldn't find it,

Brett

 

[glistam]

It's alright, this one doesn't have an easy "yes" or "no."

The primary factor is the state in which one lives. Some states have laws regarding concealed weapons, but others have laws on "carrying on or about one's person" making concealment irrelevant. In the later case, it is one's activities and intent that determine legality, rather than concealment.

Also note that certain major cities, like New York City and Los Angeles, forbid open carry but allow concealed carry.

Generally carrying in a sheath where the sheath is plainly visible and an observer can tell it's a knife right away is considered open carry. On a social note, however, walking into a downtown 7-eleven with a 10" hunting blade on your belt is going to get some very nervous looks and even a 911 call, depending the culture of that area and your demeanor.

 

[joe-bob]

It really depends on where you live. Find out about the local laws. In Texas, any legal knife can be carried either way. I read in another state's regs that said a knife in a belt sheath met the standard of concealed.

 

[hwpaintballer]

If I were to have a fixed blade knife in a sheath on my belt would that be considered open carry?

If a sheath has a cover that clips over the knife's handle and prevents the view of the handle is that considered concealed?

I assume too that if I have a fixed blade in a sheath on my belt and a jacket on that covers it then it is probably considered concealed. Is this true?
Brett

If I were to have a fixed blade knife in a sheath on my belt would that be considered open carry? If it was in plain sight, then yes.

If a sheath has a cover that clips over the knife's handle and prevents the view of the handle is that considered concealed? If it is obvious that it is made for a knife and it has a knife in it and it is in plain sight than I would say yes it is open carry.

I assume too that if I have a fixed blade in a sheath on my belt and a jacket on that covers it then it is probably considered concealed. Is this true? If the jacket is covering the knife then yes it is considered concealed.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

no sarcasm intended, but if you can see it, it is open carry.

if you cant, regardless of the item of clothing covering it or method of carry, it is concealed.

since it is commonly accepted that knives and guns are carried in sheaths and holsters, it is incidental.

 

[Keith_H]

I think that the awkwardness comes when classifying pocket knives, I know that they are concealed, but it shouldn't be illegal to carry a SAK...

 

[dttomcat]

The truth is I think it is a matter of interpretation for the justice system. And if you find yourself asking them you are already in trouble. The way I read it, in many areas I could technically walk around wielding a sizable fixed blade in my hand, literally waving the thing around. Most here know that that would be begging for trouble and could easily get you shot. I look forward to reading other peoples responses. -DT

 

[taspankya]

I have yet to find state law information that is specific to open or concealed when it comes to knives. they arent specific that there is a difference.

law on knives: http://www.ct.gov/bfpe/cwp/view.asp?a=1251&q=254204#53-206d

law that negates in anyway outlawing of a balisong (by putting it in a dangerous weapons category) as long as it meets the above link's criteria of having a cutting edge of less than 4" .
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/sup/chap950.htm#Sec53a-3.htm

i am pretty confident in that interpretation/loophole in the law which allows for my balisong < 4".. but i have no info on open vs concealed carry.

edit: i do live in CT, by the way - in case the links werent descriptive enough

 

[MORIMOTOM]

The truth is I think it is a matter of interpretation for the justice system. And if you find yourself asking them you are already in trouble. The way I read it, in many areas I could technically walk around wielding a sizable fixed blade in my hand, literally waving the thing around. Most here know that that would be begging for trouble and could easily get you shot. I look forward to reading other peoples responses. -DT

waving it around would constitute brandishing if you were anywhere near people. it would only take one person to feel "threatened", and off you go to jail (or get shot). but in and of itself, you are correct.

I have yet to find state law information that is specific to open or concealed when it comes to knives. they arent specific that there is a difference.

california differentiates between concealed and open carry. dont know about any other states specifically.

 

[mp510]

The OP is in Deleware. Deleware allows "ordinary pocket knives" with blades less than 3" in length, carried in the closed position, to be carried concealed without a CCDW permit. In order to carry any other knife concealed, one needs a CCDW permit. First CCDW offense is a Class G Felony. Because it is not prohibited (the statuatory prohibition is only on the unlicenses carriage of concealed deadly weapons) open carry is the legal way to carry a knife or other deadly weapon (ie. pistol) without a permit. What constitutes open or concealed carry is a merky area in Deleware. Concealed is not defined. "Open Carry" is not a statuatory term, so it is undefined. To my knowledge, there is no defining case law either. I personally always tried to avoid the issue when i visit Deleware- and I only (usually) carried sub-3" folding knives. As a non-resident with a reciporical CCW permit, I no longer need to worry about open/concealed carry, fixed or folding, or blade length.

I really recommend joining Opencarry.org (they have a Delware community: opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum15/ )or Deleware Open Carry Forums (deloc.org/deloc/forums/). While those sites are more gun oriented, the members there are very knowledgable about the subject matter.

 

[mp510]

I have yet to find state law information that is specific to open or concealed when it comes to knives. they arent specific that there is a difference.

law on knives: http://www.ct.gov/bfpe/cwp/view.asp?a=1251&q=254204#53-206d

law that negates in anyway outlawing of a balisong (by putting it in a dangerous weapons category) as long as it meets the above link's criteria of having a cutting edge of less than 4" .
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/sup/chap950.htm#Sec53a-3.htm

i am pretty confident in that interpretation/loophole in the law which allows for my balisong < 4".. but i have no info on open vs concealed carry.

edit: i do live in CT, by the way - in case the links werent descriptive enough

I'm a Connecticut resident. Our laws here in Connecticut make no differentiation between open carry and concealed carry- regardless of the implement in question. However, if you open carry a pistol in most towns, the likliehood is that you will be arrested for breach of peace or disorderly conduct, your permit will be revoked and your gun will be siezed. I have never had anybody question a folder clipped to my front pocket, or even a small fixed blade on my belt, the couple times that I have had one there around town. You'll notice that caselaw included with the statute on the CGA site states that indicates that a knife not specifically defined as a dangerous weapon is not one for the purposes of the statute. Thus, sub-4" butterfly knives should be legal; to carry. However, there are still arrests made for 53-206 and 29-38 on people carrying butterfly knives- even if they are dismissed later. We do have an undefined "gravity knife" term in the statute, however I have always considered it to be in line with the traditional/ technical meaning since it hasn't been defined in statute or by case law.

 

[taspankya]

I'm a Connecticut resident. Our laws here in Connecticut make no differentiation between open carry and concealed carry- regardless of the implement in question. However, if you open carry a pistol in most towns, the likliehood is that you will be arrested for breach of peace or disorderly conduct, your permit will be revoked and your gun will be siezed. I have never had anybody question a folder clipped to my front pocket, or even a small fixed blade on my belt, the couple times that I have had one there around town. You'll notice that caselaw included with the statute on the CGA site states that indicates that a knife not specifically defined as a dangerous weapon is not one for the purposes of the statute. Thus, sub-4" butterfly knives should be legal; to carry. However, there are still arrests made for 53-206 and 29-38 on people carrying butterfly knives- even if they are dismissed later. We do have an undefined "gravity knife" term in the statute, however I have always considered it to be in line with the traditional/ technical meaning since it hasn't been defined in statute or by case law.

please take notice of my second link which is penal code that defines a dangerous weapon (the only citing of anything that could be related to a a balisong - "the gravity knife" reference) is negating the actual 53-206 definition of a dangerous weapon. thus your cant even apply that penal code definition to the carrying of dangerous weapons because it specifically says that it doesnt apply to 53-206 at the end.. just curious if you noticed that, i didnt for a while... then when i revisited the law specifically for balisongs and caught it.

do you by chance have remember the case that you are referring to? i would like read it. thanks for your feedback. ct weapons laws are hard to understand alone. lol

 

[mp510]

please take notice of my second link which is penal code that defines a dangerous weapon (the only citing of anything that could be related to a a balisong - "the gravity knife" reference) is negating the actual 53-206 definition of a dangerous weapon. thus your cant even apply that penal code definition to the carrying of dangerous weapons because it specifically says that it doesnt apply to 53-206 at the end.. just curious if you noticed that, i didnt for a while... then when i revisited the law specifically for balisongs and caught it.

do you by chance have remember the case that you are referring to? i would like read it. thanks for your feedback. ct weapons laws are hard to understand alone. lol

The penal code definition [53a-3(6)] is for a 'deadly weapon'. That definition is supposed to be for chargeing situations where a weapon was used in a violent crime or the like. In that definition, you'll notice that the last line says that dfinition of a 'deadly weapon' in inapplicable to 53-206 and 29-38. The reason for that is, because beyond the enumerated list list of dangerous weapons, there is a catch-all clause at the end of 53-206 that covers any other dangerous or deadly weapon. That penal code dfinition of deadly weapon encompasses (in addition to other items that are duly enumerated as dangerus weapons) EVERY firearm. If you think that you can get away with carrying a switchblade becaue of the penal code definition of a deadly weapon, your horribly mistaken- There is quite a few folks who are busted each year on that.

Here is the cite that I was refferring to:

Cited. 5 Conn. Cir. Ct. 313. Knife not coming within description of statute cannot be included as "any other dangerous or deadly weapon" and is not with prohibition of this section. Id., 551.

 

[taspankya]

I don't carry a switchblade ("any knife having an automatic spring release device by which a blade is released from the handle"). I am carrying a balisong, concealed, that has a cutting edge of less than 4".

Based on 53-206 I should be good with that carry. The only way they could argue that the balisong is illegal is by calling it a gravity knife and referring to the penal code def. of a deadly weapon (which as you stated as well as I did) does not even apply to 53-206.

If i am understanding what you cited, it is only helping my case that I can carry a balisong. Correct?

Also, keeping with the topic, would you consider open carry (of a legally described knife by 52-206) in the state of CT to be a "no-no"? Do you think a LEO would rather not see it at all or come across it concealed? .. slippery slope lol

 

[mp510]

I don't carry a switchblade ("any knife having an automatic spring release device by which a blade is released from the handle"). I am carrying a balisong, concealed, that has a cutting edge of less than 4".

Based on 53-206 I should be good with that carry. The only way they could argue that the balisong is illegal is by calling it a gravity knife and referring to the penal code def. of a deadly weapon (which as you stated as well as I did) does not even apply to 53-206.

If i am understanding what you cited, it is only helping my case that I can carry a balisong. Correct?

Also, keeping with the topic, would you consider open carry (of a legally described knife by 52-206) in the state of CT to be a "no-no"? Do you think a LEO would rather not see it at all or come across it concealed? .. slippery slope lol

You are taking 53a-3(6) out of context. The line your referring to reads:

The definition of "deadly weapon" in this subdivision shall be deemed not to apply to section 29-38 or 53-206.

. The only place in 53-206 where the term deadly weapon can be found is in the catch-all clause. This serves to limit application of that (a little bit, potentially). How much is a question up for some debate (maybe). However, it most CERTAINLY does not encumber enforcement against persons carrying enumerated dangerous weapons.

The legislative history and that case support balisong carry. However, there is other cases that could have a negative effect. I need to get those later.

I have never been admonished by an LEO (or anybody else) for carrying a folder clipped to my pocket or any other knife. We have no laws mandating concealment. Of course, if your being immature or making a spectacle of yourself, it's not only in your best interest that the knife isn't visible- it's in your best interest not to carry the knife at all.

There was a case last spring in which an individual was arrested for carrying a butterfly knife and was charged with 29-38. I don't know whether the officer arrested him because he thought it was a gravity knife or because he thought butterfly knives were specifically prohibited. That case was eventually dismissed (within a few months).

53-206 only prohibits carrying switchblades with 1.5"+ blades. I have one in my collection that has a carry legal blade. However, I choose NOT to carry it. Aside from showing it off, there is no purpose in my doing so. Carrying that particular knife could, even though it is legal, only cause problems- because in all likliehood, most folks (LEOs included) don't know that it is not illegal to carry a sub-1.5" switchblade.

 

[zignal_zero]

general rule of thumb used by most FL LEO's (not necesarily the law, just the discretion of those enforcing it) - open carry means a non disguised handle COMPLETELY visible.

 

[Bushman5]

so what if its winter ande my fixed blade is on my belt...and i'm wearing a warm winter coat? do i ned to remove my knive and somehow (how) fasten it to the OUTSIDE of my coat?

 

[zignal_zero]

so what if its winter ande my fixed blade is on my belt...and i'm wearing a warm winter coat? do i ned to remove my knive and somehow (how) fasten it to the OUTSIDE of my coat?

yea, either that or you're carrying concealed.

 

[jdm61]

general rule of thumb used by most FL LEO's (not necesarily the law, just the discretion of those enforcing it) - open carry means a non disguised handle COMPLETELY visible.

But in other states, it means the ENTIRE knife/sheath package must be visible. While in places like Florida if may be okay to carry inside the waistband with the handle fully exposed, or with sheath still exposed if your shirt tail accidentally covered part of the handle, in other places like perhaps Georgia, it could be considered "partially concealed" and get you into big trouble.

 

[Trent Rock]

Delaware Case Law:
- "Purpose. The object of this section is to prevent the
carrying of concealed deadly weapons about the person,
because persons becoming suddenly angered, and having such
a weapon in their pocket, would be likely to use it, which
in their sober moments they would not have done, and which
could not have been done had not the weapon been upon
their person." (1892)
- "Purpose... in enacting... was to remove the 'temptation
and tendency' to use concealed deadly weapons under
conditions of 'excitement.'" (1979)
- "A razor is a deadly weapon..." (1903).

\

Your state has the infamous "upon or ABOUT"

Delaware - Crimes and Criminal Procedure - Chapter 11 Section
222. General definitions... (6) "Deadly weapon"
includes... a knife of any sort (other than an ordinary
pocketknife carried in a closed position), switchblade
knife... razor... or any other dangerous instrument. For
the purpose of this definition, an ordinary pocketknife
shall be a folding knife having a blade not more than 3
inches in length.
- Chapter 11 Section 1442. A person is guilty of carrying a
concealed deadly weapon when the person carries concealed
a deadly weapon upon or about the person without a license
to do so... a class G felony...
- Chapter 24 Section 901. No person shall engage in the
business of selling any... stiletto... or other deadly
weapon made especially for the defense of one's person
without first having obtained a license therefor... This
section shall not apply to... pocket knives or knives used
for sporting purposes and in the domestic household, or
surgical instruments or tools of any kind.
- Chapter 11 Section 1442. A person is guilty of carrying a
concealed deadly weapon when the person carries concealed
a deadly weapon upon or about the person without a license
to do so... a class G felony...
- Chapter 11 Section 222. General definitions... (6) "Deadly
weapon" includes... a knife of any sort (other than an
ordinary pocketknife carried in a closed position),
switchblade knife... razor... or any other dangerous
instrument. For the purpose of this definition, an
ordinary pocketknife shall be a folding knife having a
blade not more than 3 inches in length.
- Chapter 11 Section 1446. A person is guilty of unlawfully
dealing with a switchblade knife when he sells, offers for
sale or has in his possession a knife, the blade of which
is released by a spring mechanism or by gravity... an
unclassified misdemeanor.

Very vague
IMHO.....