When does a knife become a sword?

not2sharp

not2sharp

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It has been a while since we have covered this topic and many years ago I remember posting a similar thread in which we discussed knife length as the primary determinant. This time around I would like to propose a very different definition for distinguishing the knife from the sword; I believe that what really makes a difference is the intent of the user. If the thing is to be used primarily as a weapon, then it is a sword, otherwise it is a knife. The shape and size, as well as, the design details are important qualitative performance considerations; as in the US MkII of the Second World War makes for a poor sword but is a good knife, but it does not preclude the MkII from being used as a sword, and if your primary use for your katana is slicing tomatos then perhaps that would be an odd choice for a knife, but none-the-less a knife rather than a sword.

n2s
 
A form of Sorites paradox: take a knife with a blade of 6". Add 1/10 of an inch, so the blade is 6.1". Keep doing that. At which addition of 1/10 of an inch did the knife become a sword?
 
Maybe if it can pierce a man and exit the back side, or hack off a limb in one shot, then it would be a sword?
 
HwangJino said:
I believe when it requires 2 hands?

Just a guess.
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Yet the Japanese tanto is traditionally classified as a sword, and in describing martial conflicts there are plenty of uses of the term "short sword" rather than "knife."

n2s
 
Gadfly22 said:
A form of Sorites paradox: take a knife with a blade of 6". Add 1/10 of an inch, so the blade is 6.1". Keep doing that. At which addition of 1/10 of an inch did the knife become a sword?
Click to expand...

I originally thought the same, but have since decided that the use of the terms has nothing to do with blade length. I guess what we are really discussing is the etymology of the terms "knife" and "sword", both as used in the English language and beyond that in other languages. In the English language, both words have a germanic origins, but the term sword appears in Old English while Knife comes into use in Middle English.

n2s
 
sword
sôrd
noun
noun: sword; plural noun: swords

1.
a weapon with a long metal blade and a hilt with a hand guard, used for thrusting or striking and now typically worn as part of ceremonial dress.

It's very subjective. I imagine it would be a larger blade, above 9 inches, that you are going to use to hurt someone......
 
not2sharp said:
I originally thought the same, but have since decided that the use of the terms has nothing to do with blade length. I guess what we are really discussing is the etymology of the terms "knife" and "sword", both as used in the English language and beyond that in other languages.

n2s
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The language problem is an important part of the whole sorites paradox. So I think we actually agree that language is the issue (though I don't think etymology so much). A "knife" is a general word for a small bladed instrument. A "sword" is a general word for a large one. A "cutlass" is a word associated with a blade used in an old sailing context (and pirates), and a particular "cutlass" might be of a size that one person might describe as a small sword and another as a big knife.
 
A sword, in my opinion, is defined by a culmination of its features, rather than a specific one. It may be, in part, blade length, blade geometry, intended purpose, hilt size/shape/fittings, method of carry, scabbard/sheath style, etc. etc. A deviation of too great a degree from the variety of qualities that other swords possess renders the implement no longer a sword, but some other form of implement.

In short, what makes a sword a sword vs. a knife is almost more of a "critical mass" of its qualities.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
A sword, in my opinion, is defined by a culmination of its features, rather than a specific one. It may be, in part, blade length, blade geometry, intended purpose, hilt size/shape/fittings, method of carry, scabbard/sheath style, etc. etc. A deviation of too great a degree from the variety of qualities that other swords possess renders the implement no longer a sword, but some other form of implement.

In short, what makes a sword a sword vs. a knife is almost more of a "critical mass" of its qualities.
Click to expand...

^ Word.
 
not2sharp said:
It has been a while since we have covered this topic and many years ago I remember posting a similar thread in which we discussed knife length as the primary determinant. This time around I would like to propose a very different definition for distinguishing the knife from the sword; I believe that what really makes a difference is the intent of the user. If the thing is to be used primarily as a weapon, then it is a sword, otherwise it is a knife. The shape and size, as well as, the design details are important qualitative performance considerations; as in the US MkII of the Second World War makes for a poor sword but is a good knife, but it does not preclude the MkII from being used as a sword, and if your primary use for your katana is slicing tomatos then perhaps that would be an odd choice for a knife, but none-the-less a knife rather than a sword.

n2s
Click to expand...

FortyTwoBlades said:
A sword, in my opinion, is defined by a culmination of its features, rather than a specific one. It may be, in part, blade length, blade geometry, intended purpose, hilt size/shape/fittings, method of carry, scabbard/sheath style, etc. etc. A deviation of too great a degree from the variety of qualities that other swords possess renders the implement no longer a sword, but some other form of implement.

In short, what makes a sword a sword vs. a knife is almost more of a "critical mass" of its qualities.
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement of these too but I do believe that intent of use is most important. Bowie knives have a lot of qualities that swords do but are nonetheless used for chopping wood, food prep, and other non-combat chores. Machetes and other such big knives (Khukkuri, Barung, etc.) are often referred to as swords. Kataras and Tantos are also shorter than what people would typically think of as swords but are classified as swords nonetheless.
 
I wonder why this matters? Is there some problem resulting from the lack of specificity?

"Puukko" is a Finn word, but Finn makers are now selling pukkot with trailing points, drop points, leuku blades, and guards. So long as you see a picture, what's the harm?

XJ, a khukuri comes in a scabbard. Does that make it a "sword"? It is a tool of all work, including mayhem.
 
Thomas Linton said:
I wonder why this matters? Is there some problem resulting from the lack of specificity?

...
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This eventually returns to the old and often raised question of whether knives can be primarily weapons. If we buy into the idea that the intended use determines the correct term, then a knife could never be a weapon and if such an implement were indeed used as such then it would be properly referred to as a sword instead of a knife. In short a knife discussion would focuss on the tool use of the edged item, while a sword discussion would cover the martial aspects of the same edge tools.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
If we buy into the idea that the intended use determines the correct term, then a knife could never be a weapon and if such an implement were indeed used as such then it would be properly referred to as a sword instead of a knife. In short a knife discussion would focuss on the tool use of the edged item, while a sword discussion would cover the martial aspects of the same edge tools.

n2s
Click to expand...

Not sure if you are advancing the idea that intended use determines the correct term, but I certainly disagree with that concept. Agricultural tools like the machete -- which is big like a sword - or (in its original form) the karambit -- which is small like a knife suggest that any original intended use can easily change to something more martial. Similarly, it's hard to defend the dagger (unquestionably a "knife" when of a certain size) as a "tool' -- other than as a tool for sticking into people. It's a weapon and banned as such in a number of jurisdictions (including mine), along with other knife-like weapons such as switchblades.
 
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