Which Is Better, Teflon or Titanium Coat?

C

Confederate

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Many manufacturers use some form of teflon coating for their blades, but as many gun owners can attest, teflon coated handguns don't wear very well in the holster. Knife owners also know that a few cuts into heavy, thick material can put scrape marks on teflon coatings.

But other knife manufacturers use titanium nitride as a coating.

Is the primary purpose of these coatings to make the black, or to aid in their extraction from various materials? And can't additives be made to the steel itself to make a blade black throughout? That would be quite an accomplishment.

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I think C Ben Susrool is quite right, and all I can add is that I have a three year old Kershaw Chive with a titanium nitride (flat black) coating on both the scales and blade and it has held up very well. Sure it's banged up looking but it's seen a lot of carry/use, and the coating is all still on there. I believe most of the worn look is from other materials being added to it during scratches, as opposed to the TiNi wearing off. It's the only knife with this coating that I have, and haven't owned teflon coated products (besides frypans) so can't comment on that stuff.
 
I've heard some on this distinguished forum say the teflon makes it easier to extract a knife from some materials. Personally, I don't believe this for a minute. I can also buff out scratches and dings from a polished stainless blade, but a coated blade is marred for the life of the blade.

Polishing a blade to mirror brightness adds great beauty to a blade, in my opinion. It also increases the knife's corrosion resistance over a matte, or satin, surface. Yet there are a number of $200-$500 knives that only offer what looks like sand-blasted blades...just as though they dropped out of a machine and were simply sharpened afterwards.

A number of years ago, the media went wild over what was termed "cop killer bullets." These were teflon-coated bullets that were said to just zip through a police officer's bullet-resistent vest with ease. In reality, the teflon had nothing to do with it. It was the steel core of the bullet. The teflon only kept the steel from damaging the barrel. So when I hear about teflon aiding in knife penetration or extraction, I take it with a huge grain of salt!

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Confederate said:
I've heard some on this distinguished forum say the teflon makes it easier to extract a knife from some materials. Personally, I don't believe this for a minute. I can also buff out scratches and dings from a polished stainless blade, but a coated blade is marred for the life of the blade.


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Teflon DOES make it easier to extract a knife from materials. Teflon is the most frictionless solid, which is why it's used on non-stick pans. I tested a polished knife, a TiNi coated knife, and a teflon coated knife, and jammed all 3 knives into a piece of wood. Guess which knife extracted easier? Both the TiNi and polished knife had a harder time extracting because it was creating friction, while the frictionless teflon pulled out easily.
 
Teflon is easy to scratch and it wear out easy.

TiN, TiAlN, DLC, BC - different type of coating in many cases harder then steel, very hard to scratch and I newer see wear out TiN or similar coating. TiN used to enforce drill bit tips.

So Teflon is bit better then epoxy but it is still just like paint over blade...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Teflon is easy to scratch and it wear out easy.

TiN, TiAlN, DLC, BC - different type of coating in many cases harder then steel, very hard to scratch and I newer see wear out TiN or similar coating. TiN used to enforce drill bit tips.

So Teflon is bit better then epoxy but it is still just like paint over blade...

Thanks, Vassili.
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My TiN and TiNi coated knives wore out faster than my teflon coated knife. While the TiN and TiNi may be tougher than teflon, it creates friction, the primary cause of scratches. Teflon creates less friction, thus making it more scratch resistant, and it is more than paint over a blade. If anything, TiN and TiNi are paint over a blade. What's the point of putting a black coating on a blade if it provides little function? I've used drill bits with TiN coatings on it, and it said 6x extended life. When a drill bit snaps, no coating is going to save it. Also, what's the point of a black coating if you're worried about scratches on it? With or without a coating, you're knife is going to get scratched with hard use.
 
youstfu said:
My TiN and TiNi coated knives wore out faster than my teflon coated knife. While the TiN and TiNi may be tougher than teflon, it creates friction, the primary cause of scratches. Teflon creates less friction, thus making it more scratch resistant, and it is more than paint over a blade. If anything, TiN and TiNi are paint over a blade. What's the point of putting a black coating on a blade if it provides little function? I've used drill bits with TiN coatings on it, and it said 6x extended life. When a drill bit snaps, no coating is going to save it. Also, what's the point of a black coating if you're worried about scratches on it? With or without a coating, you're knife is going to get scratched with hard use.
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I have totally different experience. While teflon starts getting scratches right away with use against wood etc. TiN does not show any sign at all and only way to scratch it - use abrasive, so if you are not accurate it may cause scratches on TiN, but not from use, until you use it against sand and other things of this nature.

On Teflon you'll have mark once you chop wood single time - not for TiN! At least on my experience.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Confederate said:
Many manufacturers use some form of teflon coating for their blades, but as many gun owners can attest, teflon coated handguns don't wear very well in the holster. Knife owners also know that a few cuts into heavy, thick material can put scrape marks on teflon coatings.

But other knife manufacturers use titanium nitride as a coating.

Is the primary purpose of these coatings to make the black, or to aid in their extraction from various materials? And can't additives be made to the steel itself to make a blade black throughout? That would be quite an accomplishment.
Click to expand...


The primary purpose for coating a stainless blade is decorative/tactical, although some argument could be made for protecting a corrosion resistant blade from a really corrosive environment such as salt water.

There is no way to make steel itself black. The best you can do is put an inorganic finish on the surface such as Ti Nitride or black oxide. Teflon finishes are "paint" as Vassili said. They won't last as well.
 
knarfeng said:
The primary purpose for coating a stainless blade is decorative/tactical, although some argument could be made for protecting a corrosion resistant blade from a really corrosive environment such as salt water.

There is no way to make steel itself black. The best you can do is put an inorganic finish on the surface such as Ti Nitride or black oxide. Teflon finishes are "paint" as Vassili said. They won't last as well.
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Black oxide, also called blued steel, doesn't actually make the steel black. Bluing steel darkens it to a dark blueish-black color and it only works for non-stainless steel knives. Here's a picture:

Emb.MachineEngravingBluedSteel.jpg



After hearing what Vassili said, I guess the durability of the coating varies entirely from the knife maker. Contrary to what you guys see about teflon, my teflon knife has been holding up very well for cutting and poking.
 
knarfeng said:
The primary purpose for coating a stainless blade is decorative/tactical, although some argument could be made for protecting a corrosion resistant blade from a really corrosive environment such as salt water.

There is no way to make steel itself black. The best you can do is put an inorganic finish on the surface such as Ti Nitride or black oxide. Teflon finishes are "paint" as Vassili said. They won't last as well.
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I came to conclusion that in general any coating is done by manufacturers to avoid high polish. It is easier to put coating (or bead blasting) then mirror polish. I think this is main reason to put coating on stainless blade.

For example for Bark River it is not a big deal to make mirror polish - they know how to do this and so they refuse to put any coating even on A2 even it is not stainless.

Check Busse - all coated knives are cheaper then even satin finished! And if you strip it - you need to do polishing.

For TiN (or better TiAlN which is polished) I think it is win-win situation, it is no only hides grind mark without polishing, but also prevents blade from enviroment pretty well.

This is TiAlN by Buck - you may see grind marks even under coating...

Buck-Vanguard-21.jpg


Thanks, Vassili.
 
I work for a company that applies Teflon and other fluoropolymer coatings so hopefully I can provide some clarity for you.

Teflon is a plastic (polymer) that contains fluorine. It is unique in that it is extremely slippery and very resistant to corrosion. There are four chemicals that are part of the Teflon family, PTFE, PFA, FEP, and ETFE. There are approximately 100 industrial Teflon coatings and several thousand generic equivalents. Some cost 5 times as much as the entry level coatings. Each has slightly different properties and is used for different applications.

PTFE is the original Teflon and has the lowest coefficient of friction and is the hardest of the four. However, the measure of "scratch resistance" for fluoropolymers is pencil hardness. If a coating has a hardness of 2H it can be scratched by a pencil lead of 2H or harder.

If you rub a metal or wood instrument against a Teflon coating, it will scratch because the metal and wood are harder than the fluoropolymer. It is the same principle as rubbing a diamond against glass; the diamond will scratch the glass because it is harder.

If you are going to use your knife to cut into hard materials like wood, Teflon coating is probably not going to hold up well. If you are going to use your knife to cut into "soft" materials or in wet areas, Teflon coating may be for you.

The only knife blades we coat are for industrial cutting machines, but there are reinforced fluoropolymer coatings that help with wear (not scratch resistance) of the coating over time. If you see a knife with an "Excalibur", "reinforced Teflon", "ceramic supra", or "eclipse" coating, you are getting a premium coating that should last longer than the less expensive coatings.

Hope this helps shed some light on this for you.

Jim
 
wow thanks Jim I had no idea they rated teflon by pencle hardness...great info, thanks for sharing!!
 
With TiN I understand the process can provide RC hardness ratings up to 82-84 - about 20 over the blade. It also creates a new heat treat process that can be difficult accomodating certain steels, due to the elevated application temperatures.

I've had Teflon coated and TiN, TiN wins hands down for scratch resistance or sawing through cardboard shipping tubes with 1/2" wall thickness. It doesn't have to be black, Buck uses gold, and others apply rainbow. Because it doesn't hide the grind marks, I've seen better finishes, which may account for my perception of less friction - almost as slick as Teflon compared to a bare blade. That may be due to the much harder surface that resists scratching and therefore has less friction.

As for marketing, TiN blades are almost always reflective, so using it for camo purposes isn't quite the thing - non-reflective is more important than color on something as small as a knife blade, but that's a moot point. The user is generally seen or heard at a much further distance than what they are carrying.
 
I have a TiAlN coated blade from Microtech. It was originally bead-blasted, then coated, and this finish has held up remarkably well for the 6 years I've EDC'd the knife. There are abrasion marks, but it's not a scratch through the coating.

I also have a Teflon coated Benchmade that looks like hell after the use it's seen.

Now, my favorite blade finish is on my Buck Alaskan Guide 110 with a fine satin finish coated with TiAlN.

The Buck looks great, has a very smooth surface, and glides through everything. The BB Microtech binds a little easier than the Buck, as there is more friction even with a flat grind.. The Benchmade knife never sees food prep, as it's my working knife, but I can comment on cardboard slicing. The Teflon really does help it slip through on long cuts. The Buck doesn't work for that, as it has a hollow grind, but if it were full flat, I'm sure it would be just as slick as the Benchmade.

YMMV.
DD
 
As C Ben Susrool said, appearance and the resulting increase in sales is the primary reason. A secondary reason is cost, it's cheaper to coat a blade than to polish or finish it properly.

If you're a "tactical operator" get a can of flat black spray paint and touch up your knives before you go a'lurking.

I have an Emerson CQC-7 Mini-A that is now highly polished after a couple of years of EDC, still black but hardly non-reflective.

Anyone with a coated knife that is suffering from scratches and such can always recoat the knife. Brownells and Midway offer finishes similar to those used by manufacturers, both spray-on and bake-on.

If you want a non-reflective blade, check out the finish on Chris Reeve Sebenzas, it's a tumbled-with-media finish and is remarkably non-reflective for bare metal without being rough like oxide blasted.
 
There is the school of thought that says that coating of any kind impairs the cutting ability of the blade, I go to that school.
 
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