Who else uses a scythe?

[Miller '72]

Yes they later moved to Oakland, and then eventually were absorbed by the North Wayne Tool Co., which started in North Wayne, but moved to Oakland while retaining their name.

That is really great to have confirmed. It amazes me how tools journey far and close from their own making and beginning.
Maine to Connecticut 100 or so years ago and stayed put.

 

[Miller '72]

Thanks for the West Waterville confirmation.
I have not looked into more than finding West Waterville was formed in 1883 and I am assuming, without any knowledge, Dunn stamped West Waterville is an earlier mark and maybe earlier factory/location.
The Maine collection grows

Just a little follow up and clarification...

Dunn Edge Tool Co.
West Waterville ME.

"The town started as part of Waterville, breaking away and becoming the town of West Waterville in 1873. In 1883, the town was renamed Oakland."

https://www.bnctools.com/blogs/news/axe-making-in-oakland-maine-part-1

 

[calinb]

I've been experimenting with a wide variety of blade fitments and I noticed that my loop bolt and nut threads were starting to gall and seize a little. A tiny dab of anti-seize paste solved the problem and the nut now rotates freely on the loop bolt threads again. Similarly, my search for optimum nib positions was turning the rubbing surface of the wooden nib grips into sawdust from all the rubbing of the wood against the rough cast nib blocks. This friction also made the nibs more difficult to tighten. A little dab of Super Lube (silicone grease with PTFE) rubbed onto the wood and dabbed onto the mating surfaces of the nib blocks resulted in the grips turning much more easily. Another smear of anti-seize on the nib band threads didn't hurt either.

We have a variety of grasses in our lawn areas and I'm having trouble mowing some of them. The scythe slices through the flatter and broader variety grass blades nicely, but any fine round grass blades badly want to fold over and evade the edge of the blade.

I found this photo of fine fescue grass online. Maybe it's my nemesis grass variety:

Or maybe it's creeping red fescue:

In any case, our grass is not as dense as the grass in the the above photos, which isn't helping either, because there's plenty of open space in the sparsely packed grass for the blades of grass to fold over without much resistance.

My 66 cm Arti blade mows the fescue grass more effectively than my 30" Seymour Midwest blade (current new production). The Arti blade is much thinner and its edge bevels are much lower than the Seymour, so I figured I'd work on lowering the angles of the Seymour bevels. Unfortunately, when presenting the top of the Seymour blade edge square to my 10" Grizzly wet grinding wheel, the wheel can achieve a bevel that's barely lower than about 16 degrees from dead flat, because the wheel contacts the blade's chine too soon to grind lower. (I measured it and a planar surface hits the chine almost exactly at 16 degrees.) Because of the chine contact, it is impossible to obtain anywhere near the desired 14 to 18 degree included angle with symmetric top and bottom bevels (based on FortyTwoBlade's recommended 7 to 9 degrees per side) while grinding square to the wheel.

Still looking for lower bevels, I decided to try regrinding the edge presented at 45 degrees to the wheel, as described in the book that FortyTwoBlades linked early in this thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/who-else-uses-a-scythe.884115/page-7#post-10074958

I found that I agree with the book's author; grinding against the rotation of the blade worked better than grinding with the wheel for me. I've always heard that grinding against the wheel removes material faster, but I found that following the author's advice did in fact help to keep any thin pieces of edge from separating from the blade, despite my new lower angle bevel, and it's much easier to avoid rounding the edge. The 45 degree presentation angle also permitted a somewhat lower grind than grinding square to the wheel, but I can't say one way or the other about the alleged benefits of the 45 degree scratch pattern, which the author advocated for its serrations effect. Still, perhaps it helped too. I ground a much shorter and lower angle asymmetric bevel on the bottom bevel. My current production Seymour is not a laminated blade and I'll know to grind the edge symmetrically to the center, if I ever find a classic laminated one

Now my Seymour blade edge features an included edge angle that rivals the Arti blade--something less than 20 degrees. It's difficult to measure such a fine edge angle, but I'd say it looks like about 17 or 18 degrees when I place the Grizzly 20 degree blade gauge next to it.

The new grind improved the performance of the Seymour, but there's still plenty of room for more improvement and I'm open to suggestions for mowing our fescue grass for sure. Should I try a file for yet another scratch pattern? I plan to eventually try a Baryonyx Knife Company grinding point, because its geometry can produce a symmetric 7-9 degree low angle per side grind. (It'll go as low as you want to go!) I'm currently honing exclusively with an Arctic Fox scythe stone followed by a whipping stick. I really like the Arctic Fox. It cuts super fast for its fine finish and the shape is very versatile. If I condition my Grizzly wheel with the fine side of my Tormek stone grader before the final grinding pass, I don't see any need to hone with an intermediate grit hone before the Arctic Fox.

In truth, I'm not all that concerned about the fescue grass, because the blade cuts timothy very well (even when fairly short, as it is now). Livestock feed is my main application for the tool, but I figure the better I can learn to mow the fescue, the better I'll be able to mow our timothy hay pasture later in the summer.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Fescue is waxy, and like to slip off edges that aren't sufficiently thin and keen. You'll find that with fescues a toothy edge like that from the Bull Thistle chased with a whipping stick to true the apex to its fullest will give the best results.

At this point I fully recommend grinding at a 45° to the wheel when grinding freehand. Grinding square to the wheel is mostly of advantage if using a jig as a beginner. At a 45° slant it allows lower angles with fewer clearance issues, and helps reduce edge convexing from shifts in contact point on the wheel. You can also sort of "rotate" the blade on the wheel to walk where the grinding is occurring with a fairly high degree of accuracy. The slanted scratch pattern from grinding mostly doesn't matter because the stones take care of that aspect and any influence from the bevel grinding will be quickly erased. But the slant of the scratch pattern does matter. Grinding with the wheel moving away from you will yield higher accuracy but more predisposition to form a burr that will need removal later, and with the foil-like nature of burrs at that low an angle, they can be tenacious to remove. In fact, I find it easiest to remove them by mowing and frequently honing, and after a few minutes of such treatment the burr is fully broken off. Grinding into the direction of the wheel helps minimize this sort of formation, but is more difficult to hold at a consistent presentation.

I would avoid using a file for beveling work if you can avoid it, simply because it is not of advantage compared to other methods. With your particular growth I think you'd find advantage in adding a Bull Thistle and a Manticore to the mix, and it'll give you plenty to experiment with. The Manticore is good for periodic bevel maintenance and ironing out damage in the field. My usual honing cycle goes something like this:

•~3x honing sessions using only the whipping stick.
• 1x honing session with the Arctic Fox followed by whipping stick.
• Back to the ~3x honing sussions using only the whipping stick, then 1x session with the AF followed by stick.
• One session of two passes of the Bull Thistle, then one pass with the AF, then the stick. Repeat from the beginning (~3x sessions of just the stick and so on.)
•Once having gone through the above cycle twice, conclude with 1-3 careful passes with the Manticore at an extra low angle, then the BT, AF, and stick, then start all over at the beginning of the entire cycle again.

 

[calinb]

Fescue is waxy, and like to slip off edges that aren't sufficiently thin and keen. You'll find that with fescues a toothy edge like that from the Bull Thistle chased with a whipping stick to true the apex to its fullest will give the best results.

Hmm..waxy, eh? That explains it!

Grinding with the wheel moving away from you will yield higher accuracy but more predisposition to form a burr that will need removal later, and with the foil-like nature of burrs at that low an angle, they can be tenacious to remove. In fact, I find it easiest to remove them by mowing and frequently honing, and after a few minutes of such treatment the burr is fully broken off. Grinding into the direction of the wheel helps minimize this sort of formation, but is more difficult to hold at a consistent presentation.

Thanks for the tips! I guess I still need to try holding 45 degrees with the wheel moving away from the edge. (I've only tried a square edge presentation combined with this wheel direction so far.) To my thinking, the wheel rotation relative to the blade and its rotation relative to the user's body are two different things. I found the book author's suggested combination to be very efficacious. His advice to hold the tang the farthest away from one's body while placing one's other hand on the opposite side of the wheel at 45 degrees to work very well for me. With the stone rotating away from one's body and into the edge apex, it is easy to resist the pull of the wheel and stabilize the blade against the wheel rotation. One's hands find an excellent and safe support surface against the spine of the blade. Flipping the blade in one's hands (changing tang and toe hands), one then grinds the other side of the blade from tang to toe. Again, thanks for that link (and starting this thread so many years ago). I know I'm going to find countless gems in the book's hundreds of pages!

In order to grind with the wheel running away from the edge, a sort of pinch hold on the spine can be used (the comfy tang hold is lost, shortly after the long journey towards the toe begins) and I think the author's described hold, which results from the wheel pushing the blade into one's hands instead of pulling the blade from one's fingers, is nicer. Still, in the interest of full experimentation, I need to try a 45 degree presentation with the wheel moving away from the edge apex.

I would avoid using a file for beveling work if you can avoid it, simply because it is not of advantage compared to other methods. With your particular growth I think you'd find advantage in adding a Bull Thistle and a Manticore to the mix, and it'll give you plenty to experiment with. The Manticore is good for periodic bevel maintenance and ironing out damage in the field.

I plan to complete my set of your BYXCO scythe stones once you have the Bull Thistle back in stock. The shape is excellent for my pocket knives--especially for my three tiny Kershaw Ken Onion Scallion and Chive pocket knives with their tight recurved edges. It's possible to nicely hone the curve by drawing it near the tip of the stone's side surface. Previously I used sandpaper wrapped on a rod for this area, but I now prefer the use of your Arctic Fox scythe stone.

My usual honing cycle goes something like this:

•~3x honing sessions using only the whipping stick.
• 1x honing session with the Arctic Fox followed by whipping stick.
• Back to the ~3x honing sussions using only the whipping stick, then 1x session with the AF followed by stick.
• One session of two passes of the Bull Thistle, then one pass with the AF, then the stick. Repeat from the beginning (~3x sessions of just the stick and so on.)
•Once having gone through the above cycle twice, conclude with 1-3 careful passes with the Manticore at an extra low angle, then the BT, AF, and stick, then start all over at the beginning of the entire cycle again.

Thanks, FortyTwoBlades! I'll try your cycle.

I hope to get photos of my extended snath in hand posted this weekend. I'm very interested in your thoughts about the ergonomic merits of my modification for tall mowers!

 

[John A. Larsen]

Interesting on that West water field being absorbed by the North Wayne Tool. Spent several summers in Wayne, ME on the shore of lake Androscoggin. My Father had been there in the 30's during his summer vacations. They probably moved to Connecticut as the Winters in that part of Maine were pretty cold. John

 

[calinb]

Okay. My Seymour blade cuts our fescue lawn grass as well as my Arti blade now. The new grind was the key. It takes a very keen and sharp edge to mow that stuff! Actually, the weight of the Seymour is an advantage over the flyweight Arti sometimes, but with fescue, it's not in the manner that I've always expected the extra weight to be an advantage ("follow through" energy). As FortyTwoBlades mentioned, the fescue requires down force. To give the right arm a rest from supplying said down force, it's possible to "drop" the weight of the blade in from a small height to supply the down force when initiating the start of the swathing stroke. The technique works very well when trimming in small tight areas, where a full swing of the blade isn't possible anyway. The down force-supplying benefit of the technique won't last for a full swing, but it permits more restful short swings!

 

[Miller '72]

Interesting on that West water field being absorbed by the North Wayne Tool. Spent several summers in Wayne, ME on the shore of lake Androscoggin. My Father had been there in the 30's during his summer vacations. They probably moved to Connecticut as the Winters in that part of Maine were pretty cold. John

My fathers mom and dad were both from north of Moosehead, after the war (WWII) they settled here in CT also.

 

[calinb]

I just ordered an Earle Special Swift Cutter weed blade from Baryonyxknife (and a bunch of honing and sharpening tools). It may be a vintage North Wayne Tool collectible, but I don't collect any sorts of closet queens (I use all my knives and classic firearms too), so I plan to use it to weed and remove the smaller wild rose bushes from our pasture. (I'm using a machete on the larger nasties or even a pole chainsaw where they grow very thick outside of the pasture.)

I'll take very good care of the Earle Special though, because I plan to pass it on to my daughter. My modern Seymour grass blade and extended #9 snath are holding up to the roses very well (much better than my 40 cm Arti "bush" blade, which lacks the web and edge thickness and strength to cut anything woody), but the best grind for a grass blade is much thinner than it is for a bush blade so I need another blade. Though 24-1/2" long, the Earle Special Swift Cutter should have no problems over the fairly even and unobstructed ground of our pasture.

I'm trying to find time to get photos of my extended Seymour No. 9 snath--maybe late this afternoon still.

 

[calinb]

Here's a photo of my extended Seymour No. 9 snath in sort of a "ready" position. Maybe I'll post a video eventually, but I need longer grass for more practice before I document my newbish technique for the record. My current project of clearing wild roses doesn't really help to improve my hay mowing technique either, though it does serve as a good validation test for my snath extension mod. To clear the wild roses from the pasture that's behind me in the photo (8 acres of hay, come late summer), I'm using FortyTwoBlades technique for Dense Woody-Stemmed Growth: "A “ripping” stroke up and back is used, almost like pulling the ripcord of a two-stroke engine or pulling a plant from the ground by its roots. This stroke is used to cut diagonally across the stems of the growth." (http://site.baryonyxknife.com/blog/2014/08/10/a-primer-on-the-selection-use-maintenance-of-the-american-scythe/#comment-3996)

The extension is fixed solid and holding-up well (still no need for hardware--just the JB Weld-bonded oak extension). The required tang lift was 10 degrees for me with this current production Seymour grass blade so I must've done the trig about right for the ~5.75" snath extension. (10 degrees of tang lift is pretty typical for mowers shorter than I using current production Seymour snaths and blades.)

 

[Square_peg]

From a 1953 catalog on Archive.org -- the touting of the blades being beveled on the underside only is curious, as it's the worst option to have with a single-bevel configuration. Not sure what basis they have for thinking it would be more efficient

Which begs the question, why do you think the opposite is more efficient?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Which begs the question, why do you think the opposite is more efficient?

Because it is the edge configuration that is least prone to glancing off the stalks rather than cutting them. Since the total edge angle is so low, this is still not a tremendous issue, but it's the geometry most prone to such an issue out of the three major possible options. Taking a knife as an example, a conventional double beveled knife with an edge 15° per side you may make a cut with either face at any angle greater than 15° and equal to or less than 90° (because over that point and you're limited by the opposing face's bevel angle, not that of the initial one.)

Change that to 10° on one side and 20° on the other and you still have the same total bevel angle, but you may now approach the target surface at a lower angle on the 10° face (any angle greater than 10° up to 90°) but are more limited on the opposing face, now only being able to approach the target surface at any angle over 20°. Lastly, you can have a chisel-ground knife where one side is dead flat (0°) and the other is 30°. The flat face may approach the cut at any angle greater than 0° but you now have to approach from an angle greater than 30° on the beveled face.

Because grass and other vegetation is so light and flexible, it is much more able to deflect and change its angle of presentation relative to the target, which means that with the bevel on the underside you are much more likely to end up with stalks simply bending over and then running parallel with the bevel, failing to be cut, especially since scythe blades are often run at a slight upward tilt relative to the ground. This is least likely to occur with a scythe blade beveled on the top side only. However, because the total edge angle is only ~18° in total, this is still usually not a major issue, even when it's at its most glancing-prone.

 

[calinb]

I've sent a lot of time thinking about the above question after you posted the 1953 catalog, FortyTwoBlades, but I have not come up with such an excellent theory and explanation as you have here. Thanks!

Lastly, you can have a chisel-ground knife where one side is dead flat (0°) and the other is 30°. The flat face may approach the cut at any angle greater than 0° but you now have to approach from an angle greater than 30° on the beveled face.

Ahaa--a draw knife, a favorite tool of bowyers (typically at 25 degrees / single bevel) for approaching the bow stave at close to dead flat!

Because grass and other vegetation is so light and flexible, it is much more able to deflect and change its angle of presentation relative to the target, which means that with the bevel on the underside you are much more likely to end up with stalks simply bending over and then running parallel with the bevel, failing to be cut, especially since scythe blades are often run at a slight upward tilt relative to the ground. This is least likely to occur with a scythe blade beveled on the top side only.

So, putting it in wood turner's lingo (which I recently learned), the grass and other vegetation is less likely to deflect and "rub the bevel" of the tool, instead of being cut, when the bevel on the underside of the scythe blade is shallow or dead flat.

I dunno, FortyTwoBlades, I think you are building a good case for grinding grass blades with a single bevel, if they are not of laminated / welded composition! It's an odds/percentages thing with grass and flexible vegetation; some of some grass stalks will flex too much in the wrong direction and rub the bevel. Why not reduce the odds of it happening? I think this why pressing down on the scythe also helps in grass.

I think you've also made a bit of a case for grinding rather than peening grass blades, FortyTwoBlades. When peening conventionally from the top side of the blade, it seems to me that a little upward bend of the bottom edge always occurs (a concave upward surface forms from peening). Then again, what would happen by peening upside down (assuming the lift of the blade were set high enough to keep the edge from digging into the ground)? Maybe a net "win" would result from the "negative bevel" effect of upside-down peening, even if greater blade lift is required.

 

[calinb]

Adding to my down-force grass mowing technique theory: I think that pressing the scythe down into the grass enables the edge of the blade to catch the grass stem's curve slightly lower, where the blade is less likely to only rub the bevel and not get sliced by the apex of the edge. A low underside bevel presentation angle and low position of the edge apex both help, but as I also hinted above, the underside presentation angle can be changed by changing the lift of the tang or the angle that the user controls via their presentation of the snath too. I don't think that an arbitrarily high underside bevel presentation angle can be fully optimized by adjusting the tang or user's presentation, however, because at some point the blade will no longer ride across ground smoothly and it will dig into the ground. Perhaps a tendency to "stub one's toe" (of the blade) would be the first negative effect noticed.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I suggest that people grind equally at all times, since by doing so you will be training your muscle memory properly for dealing with laminated blades, and it is not always readily apparent that a blade is laminated. As far as angles and how they play into things, it's a little more complicated than that. A crisp apex is the single biggest factor in making a good cut in difficult-to-cut grass/vegetation and to get that you need to be able to manage your burr, which generally means you're going to need to be honing both sides of the blade regardless of how you bevel it. With Euro blades the curvature from spine to edge sort of builds in the angle so you don't have to hone an entire flat region, while keeping the actual thickness low so that it's easy to peen. Which means that functionally it's sort of like they're beveled on the underside in spite of the single bevel from peening. Again, the angles we're talking about are so low that functionally it doesn't really play any significant role. I had merely been remarking on how it was curious how they were advertising it being beveled on the underside was somehow superior, when not only did it not especially matter much, but that from a purely academic standpoint it would be marginally worse than a traditional double-bevel or the inverse orientation of a single bevel. That's in no way saying that the arrangement of the bevel position in the web significantly impacts the performance of a whole steel blade. It's just that out of the three major possible configurations that they could have gone for, they chose the theoretical worst one and called it the best.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

After an extensive development period, Longfellow Snaths are finally ready for show time!

 

[calinb]

After an extensive development period, Longfellow Snaths are finally ready for show time!

Looks great! It has everything nearly anyone needs in a snath and little else AND the fit is great for just about all mowers right out of the box. I see only two curves in the steam-bent ash. Perfect! I can find no reason to motivate more bends and a snath shape that lies in a single plane aids adjustment efforts and increases versatility, I think. I know you are very busy right now but I hope you have a little time to answer some questions about the new Longfellow, FortyTwoBlades:

Can you explain the reason for not choosing to use a simple washer and nut on a somewhat longer flush head screw to anchor the far / shank end of the heel plate?

Also, what's the projection I see past the nut on the nib band? Does the band just have an extra long threaded section? It looks like it's something else sticking out.

You talk about two different heel plates on your North Star heel plate page: If using with a North Star scythe ring, select parallel form for American tangs, or bell form for interchangeable use with both American or European tang styles. Does the Longfellow come with the bell or parallel form and can you please explain the difference?

My Seymour and Arti tangs are all bent to about 10 to 12 degrees and my Arti tangs ground slightly to fit my No. 9 snath. I suspect they'll all fit the Longfellow. What do you think?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Looks great! It has everything nearly anyone needs in a snath and little else AND the fit is great for just about all mowers right out of the box. I see only two curves in the steam-bent ash. Perfect! I can find no reason to motivate more bends and a snath shape that lies in a single plane aids adjustment efforts and increases versatility, I think. I know you are very busy right now but I hope you have a little time to answer some questions about the new Longfellow, FortyTwoBlades:

Can you explain the reason for not choosing to use a simple washer and nut to anchor the flush head screw on the tang end of the heel plate?

Also, what's the projection I see past the nut on the nib band? Does the band just have an extra long threaded section? It looks like it's something else sticking out.

You talk about two different heel plates on your North Star heel plate page: If using with a North Star scythe ring, select parallel form for American tangs, or bell form for interchangeable use with both American or European tang styles. Does the Longfellow come with the bell or parallel form and can you please explain the difference?

My Seymour and Arti tangs are all bent to about 10 to 12 degrees and my Arti tangs ground slightly to fit my No. 9 snath. I suspect they'll all fit the Longfellow. What do you think?

There's plenty of things to be gained from more complex bends, but this makes the fitting more universal so that it can be used by multiple people with minimal adjustment, whereas most "adjustable" snaths are more like adjustable for a single user, and then it spends the rest of its useful life in roughly that configuration.

The Longfellow comes with a parallel-walled ring, but we'll have bell-shaped ones made by the same manufacturing partner in the future, as well. As things currently stand we have a few water-jet-cut ones available while the final production ones are plasma cut. Because of the clamping method used with American hardware, it means that rather than pivoting at the knob, as Euro blades with a conventional set screw ring do, they pivot at the clamp point and so the knob changes position to alter the hang instead. The width of Euro tangs prevents them from being able to pivot in the ring sufficiently to use them with the parallel-walled ring. The bell-shaped ring has more space for the broad tang to pivot when clamped.

The tang angle you have currently sounds roughly appropriate for the Longfellow.

 

[calinb]

The bell-shaped ring has more space for the broad tang to pivot when clamped.

Thanks for the additional info. I see the difference now, in comparing your third photo above with the photo of the bell-shape on your website:

I had to grind surprisingly little from my Arti blades to fit them to my Seymour No. 9 hafting collar and ring bolt (enabling all three knob adjustment positions), but I'd rather not grind more metal from them in fear of unsatisfactorily weakening the web that joins the tang to the blade shank. As you've pointed out, the Arti tang is relatively short so the grinding required incurs into the web slightly, but they have held up to my sometimes too aggressive wild rose cutting antics just fine (the Arti blade thinness behind the edge is far more vulnerable to damage than the tang and tang connection when clearing woody growth).

My Arti mods might work with the parallel shank Northstar on the Longfellow so perhaps I'll order a Longfellow and test the parallel form fit, rather than wait for the bell pattern availability. Of course my Seymour and soon-to-arrive Earle Special Swift Cutter blade will both definitely work with the parallel shank Northstar.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The Earle Special ought to be on its way to you in tomorrow's outgoing packages, by the way.