?Who hates SAK'S?
- Thread starter Morgoth412
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Dijos said:
If you don't attach keys to your SAK or a lanyard I would take the keyring off. Thats what I did, and obviously the awl hitting the keyring is no longer a problem.
1095 is a carbon steel...A SAK has so many small areas and joints that making it carbon would be disasterous! I don't feel the current SS stinks. In fact I love it. It's easy to sharpen, holds a good edge.
The flat head screwdriver being rounded and polished is a common complaint, but one easily taken care of with a coarse stone.
Yea it gets filthy in the pocket..Doesn't affect anything though. All knives carried in the pocket get filthy. You either clean em or live with it. I'm lazy so I live with it.
-Kevin
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Dave,
Awesome, tell us what you think. If you like 'em really slim check out:
Alox- Bantam, Secretary, Soldier, Electrician, Farmer, or really any of the Alox handled knives are as slim or slimmer then a 2 layer plastic one
Plastic- Bantam, PocketPal, Recruit, Tinker, Spartan, Compact, Waiter or any other two layered SAK's
Lavan,
Thanks for the tip.
Matt,
Very true about all knives getting scratched up. I've scuffed up FRN Spydercos, aluminum, wood, G10... They are beauty marks!
-Kevin
Awesome, tell us what you think. If you like 'em really slim check out:
Alox- Bantam, Secretary, Soldier, Electrician, Farmer, or really any of the Alox handled knives are as slim or slimmer then a 2 layer plastic one
Plastic- Bantam, PocketPal, Recruit, Tinker, Spartan, Compact, Waiter or any other two layered SAK's
Lavan,
Thanks for the tip.
Matt,
Very true about all knives getting scratched up. I've scuffed up FRN Spydercos, aluminum, wood, G10... They are beauty marks!
-Kevin
t1mpani
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Overall I like them for what they are, but I have to take issue with something I keep seeing stated on this thread: the SAK steel does NOT get any sharper than any other steel. They are very sharp because they have very thin edge geometry. They get dull very fast because those thin edges are made out of steel with low abrasion resistance that is left relatively soft. Yes they sharpen up very quickly--I can put a razor sharp edge on aluminum even faster!
The SAK blades/edges really are ideally designed for fine cutting, and would benefit SO much from a higher grade steel. In fact, S30V and D-2 make much more sense in this kind blade, where the high hardness and deformation resistance can aid the thin edges, than they do in larger "hard use" knives where their brittleness becomes a factor.
With equal edge geometry, higher grade steels are every bit as sharp as low grade steels, and will maintain that sharpness much better. Also, thin edges are easier to sharpen for all steels. I have a Simonich Bitter Root in S30V that has comparable edge geometry to a Victorinox and it will keep cutting long after the 420HC at 56 RC turns into a butter knife. Similarly, a friend of mine has the A.G. Russell Scout which is like a basic SAK except that the tools are made of basic steel and the main blade is 154-CM. Same thing--it has a thin edge and gets scalpel sharp, and stays that way for much longer. Last time I sharpened it was a couple years ago (he let me borrow it on a hunting trip) and it was back to skinning in about two minutes--so unless you're trying to sharpen you knives on a sidewalk, I don't buy the soft steel as a benefit. True, it's more expensive than a typical SAK, but that has far more to do with the fact that it's coming from a low-production maker than difference in the steel.
A big, world-distribution maker like Victorinox who buys steel by the ton could have good blades in their knives and not need to tack more than $10.00 to the prices.
Yes, SAK steel is better than anything the cavemen had, or even your typical knife user from 200 years ago. Thing is, they used the best that was available to them. Go back in time and let a minuteman borrow your M-16 and see how much he wants his flintlock back. The whole reason we're not in the bronze age anymore is that we keep finding ways to do things better. If you have something that's better at a job, why not use it? I think the super-stainless (and nothing else) steels like Vic. uses make great dive knives and are okay for making the screwdrivers, awls, etc. out of. As a cutlery steel, they are mediocre performers, made to look as good as they can by good edge geometry. Switch to a good steel with the same geometry, and they'd actually have a tool to brag about.
The SAK blades/edges really are ideally designed for fine cutting, and would benefit SO much from a higher grade steel. In fact, S30V and D-2 make much more sense in this kind blade, where the high hardness and deformation resistance can aid the thin edges, than they do in larger "hard use" knives where their brittleness becomes a factor.
With equal edge geometry, higher grade steels are every bit as sharp as low grade steels, and will maintain that sharpness much better. Also, thin edges are easier to sharpen for all steels. I have a Simonich Bitter Root in S30V that has comparable edge geometry to a Victorinox and it will keep cutting long after the 420HC at 56 RC turns into a butter knife. Similarly, a friend of mine has the A.G. Russell Scout which is like a basic SAK except that the tools are made of basic steel and the main blade is 154-CM. Same thing--it has a thin edge and gets scalpel sharp, and stays that way for much longer. Last time I sharpened it was a couple years ago (he let me borrow it on a hunting trip) and it was back to skinning in about two minutes--so unless you're trying to sharpen you knives on a sidewalk, I don't buy the soft steel as a benefit. True, it's more expensive than a typical SAK, but that has far more to do with the fact that it's coming from a low-production maker than difference in the steel.
A big, world-distribution maker like Victorinox who buys steel by the ton could have good blades in their knives and not need to tack more than $10.00 to the prices.
Yes, SAK steel is better than anything the cavemen had, or even your typical knife user from 200 years ago. Thing is, they used the best that was available to them. Go back in time and let a minuteman borrow your M-16 and see how much he wants his flintlock back. The whole reason we're not in the bronze age anymore is that we keep finding ways to do things better. If you have something that's better at a job, why not use it? I think the super-stainless (and nothing else) steels like Vic. uses make great dive knives and are okay for making the screwdrivers, awls, etc. out of. As a cutlery steel, they are mediocre performers, made to look as good as they can by good edge geometry. Switch to a good steel with the same geometry, and they'd actually have a tool to brag about.
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I have 7 SAKs and I hate the darn things! When I'm looking for my daily EDC in my sacred knife drawer, I am always missing one or two of the sneaky things. I usually find them hiding in the pocket of the pants I wore YESTERDAY. A good knife would hide in the pants I plan to wear TODAY - right?
Whats with the dopy bright colors? If I drop a SAK in the weeds, I rarely lose it or anything.
Dave_B.
Whats with the dopy bright colors? If I drop a SAK in the weeds, I rarely lose it or anything.
Dave_B.
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I hate SAKs because I have to choose one from the dozen or so on my dresser every morning. I can never decide and often carry a couple just so they won't get lonely. I added a pocket clip to my One Handed Trekker, which has made it the ultimate EDC for me lately. I just ignore the serrations on the blade; they're shallow enough that you can still cut a wicked fuzz stick with them. I'm not really a chisel grind fan, but on the trekker it makes for a very wickedly thin edge....If it came down to the dreaded "one knife" scenario, it'd take me a week to figure out which SAK to take...
SAKs used to be fine, but after the first Leatherman came out, they should have gone out of business. I haven't owned a SAK in something like fifteen to twenty years. Sometimes I almost buy one for old times sake, but with a Leatherman and a Spyderco, I can't find a need for one. The gadget value was HUGE in the '70s, but now it's not there. Sorry.
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I hate SAKs because they are smug. They are so prim and neat that they remind me of those blokes who always have their shirt tucked in, hair short, wear bowties, weigh the same as when they where seventeen, always smile and never seem to have any personal crises. They are flawless, uncomplicated and so 100% reliable that they make me sour and nervous. That chipper, can-do, attitude is just irritating.
I hate SAKs because women feel unthreatened by them. They are like that gay bloke who is best friends with your girlfriend. You can hear them both laughing behind the door when you come home but they go silent when you walk in the room.
I hate the fact that they always have an answer to any problem, like that dweeb at school who claimed to know everything. He didnt just know the name of the Unknown Soldier but also the bloke who shot him. The geek who was at the bottom of the high school food chain who is now signing your paychecks.
I hate my SAKs, all twelve of them. I hate each new one even more. I hate the fact that they never wear out, giving me no excuse to get a new one, exposing me as an indulgent greedy fool.
I hate my soldier SAK the most. The way is just sits there, looking as good as it did five years ago in unspoken judgement of the fact that I do not. Im better than you, it silently intimates. You know it. I know it. End of story.
I hate SAKs because women feel unthreatened by them. They are like that gay bloke who is best friends with your girlfriend. You can hear them both laughing behind the door when you come home but they go silent when you walk in the room.
I hate the fact that they always have an answer to any problem, like that dweeb at school who claimed to know everything. He didnt just know the name of the Unknown Soldier but also the bloke who shot him. The geek who was at the bottom of the high school food chain who is now signing your paychecks.
I hate my SAKs, all twelve of them. I hate each new one even more. I hate the fact that they never wear out, giving me no excuse to get a new one, exposing me as an indulgent greedy fool.
I hate my soldier SAK the most. The way is just sits there, looking as good as it did five years ago in unspoken judgement of the fact that I do not. Im better than you, it silently intimates. You know it. I know it. End of story.
Sorry you disagree, don't ask for opinions and then get irritated at responses that you don't like.
I didn't say anything in my post about any new supersteels. I think that any of the older stainless steels that are heat treated well would be vastly superior to the soft stuff used in SAKs.
If ease of sharpening is a main factor for loving SAKs, then a lot of people should love them to death, there are a lot of people that have a hard time sharpening good hard steels.
I must be hunting and fishing in the wrong part of the country.....I have NEVER seen a SAK in the field. Perhaps there is a fertile market here to be developed.
Thomas
I didn't say anything in my post about any new supersteels. I think that any of the older stainless steels that are heat treated well would be vastly superior to the soft stuff used in SAKs.
If ease of sharpening is a main factor for loving SAKs, then a lot of people should love them to death, there are a lot of people that have a hard time sharpening good hard steels.
I must be hunting and fishing in the wrong part of the country.....I have NEVER seen a SAK in the field. Perhaps there is a fertile market here to be developed.
Thomas
Danbo
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I gotta echo Buzzbaits comments here. If I'm going out in the woods, I'm gonna have my Victorinox SAK with me. Specifically, the large Mauser version with the green handles. This particular version has 2 knife blades, both larger than normal. One is spearpoint and one is clippoint. It also has a larger than normal wickedly sharp saw.
No, the blades aren't made out of some fancified designer steel, but they sure do get sharp easily and hold an edge for a reasonable amount of time. Plus, being flat ground so nice and thin, they will push cut long after they are no longer razor sharp.
No, the blades aren't made out of some fancified designer steel, but they sure do get sharp easily and hold an edge for a reasonable amount of time. Plus, being flat ground so nice and thin, they will push cut long after they are no longer razor sharp.
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zinn1348 said:
Umm,
I wasn't irritated at all.. In fact I put a couple of smiles in there and said thanks for giving me your point of view and what not. What did I write to make you think I was pissed at you??
-Kevin
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T1mpani,
Good post, I think it was well written and thought out. (Even though I'm going to disagree. )
I EDC slipjoints mostly. Around the house I use my Buck Cadet (420HC) and sometimes a Schrade UH Rancher (Donno what steel). Now the blades on both of those are as thin as a SAK's, and the Schrades are fully flat ground as well but my SAK's get a little more scary sharp.
I'm not sure why they feel that way to me. If what you are saying though is true that the SAK ss doesn't get a little sharper then blades of the similar geometry and thickness then we are all experiencing a weird fluke.
To me though, VG10 seems to be the only steel that I have gotten as sharp as a SAK blade.
As for SAK upgrading the steel, that would be really kool. I don't care that much though, I really like the current SS. As I've said it gets me through a few weeks fine before I have to sharpen again, and thats a good enough time for me. I used to carry the latest and greatest stuff all of the time, and it's a pain to sharpen and not much worth the extra time. Thats just my oppinion though.
Dave,
Nice! Whats your favorite?
#3,
Same as above, LOL, whats your favorite?
Naja Haie,
No need for sorries! It's all oppinions here.
I disagree on the grounds that Leatherman and SAK are a different market. As has been said, a SAK is a knife with back up tools, and a Leatherman is tools with a back up knife. I prefer having a knife accompany my Spyderco then a multitool. If you like it the other way, thats cool.
Now off topic: What Spyderco do you EDC? (They are my 2nd favorite knife company.) I have to get a Delica again. It was part of my EDC before my collection was confiscated and one of my favorite knives. (I've also owned a Lum Chinese, Native, Ladybug, and Endura. Looking to get a Kiwi once I get to college this year.)
Ming,
Good point.
-Kevin
Good post, I think it was well written and thought out. (Even though I'm going to disagree.
)I EDC slipjoints mostly. Around the house I use my Buck Cadet (420HC) and sometimes a Schrade UH Rancher (Donno what steel). Now the blades on both of those are as thin as a SAK's, and the Schrades are fully flat ground as well but my SAK's get a little more scary sharp.
I'm not sure why they feel that way to me. If what you are saying though is true that the SAK ss doesn't get a little sharper then blades of the similar geometry and thickness then we are all experiencing a weird fluke.
To me though, VG10 seems to be the only steel that I have gotten as sharp as a SAK blade.
As for SAK upgrading the steel, that would be really kool. I don't care that much though, I really like the current SS. As I've said it gets me through a few weeks fine before I have to sharpen again, and thats a good enough time for me. I used to carry the latest and greatest stuff all of the time, and it's a pain to sharpen and not much worth the extra time. Thats just my oppinion though.
Dave,
Nice! Whats your favorite?
#3,
Same as above, LOL, whats your favorite?
Naja Haie,
No need for sorries! It's all oppinions here.
I disagree on the grounds that Leatherman and SAK are a different market. As has been said, a SAK is a knife with back up tools, and a Leatherman is tools with a back up knife. I prefer having a knife accompany my Spyderco then a multitool. If you like it the other way, thats cool.
Now off topic: What Spyderco do you EDC? (They are my 2nd favorite knife company.) I have to get a Delica again. It was part of my EDC before my collection was confiscated and one of my favorite knives. (I've also owned a Lum Chinese, Native, Ladybug, and Endura. Looking to get a Kiwi once I get to college this year.)
Ming,
Good point.
-Kevin
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From what I've observed, a basic Vic SAK has a higher level of cutting efficiency than a Schrade slipjoint, when sharpened at the same angle. The SAK has almost the same blade thickness at the spine as the Schrade, but is ground thinner overall. This means that the SAK will cut better than the Schrade, given the same level of edge deterioration. The net effect is that the Old Timer is the stronger prybar (which it should be since it has no flathead screwdriver), but with slightly reduced cutting efficiency and slightly reduced sharpenability. I doubt that the actual type of steel has much effect in a comparison between Victorinox stainless and Schrade+ stainless. The steels are very similar. The Schrade may be a little tougher yet less stainless, but this is just a guess though.
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Buzzbait said:
Buzz,
Thanks! Seems to make sense. I will look closer at the grind tonight. I have to retract my statement then of it being the steel that makes SAK sharper feeling. :footinmou But hell, even if it is the grind and geometry they get SHARP!!
T1mpani, you hit the nail on the head in your origional post then.
The fact that VG10 gets as sharp as a thinner geometry SAK says alot for the steel and Spyderco.
-Kevin
Ming 65...... I felt the same way at first. SAK's just too "Joe College."
THEN...one day a jerk cut in front of me at the checkout counter to buy HIS beer ahead of MY eggs.
Slip that lil One Hand DeSerrated Trailmaster between the ribs and ....PRESTO! BAD boy RESPECK !!!
And besides, the Swiss army has never lost a war.
So, it's all in the ATTITUDE. An SAK waved threateningly in a crowd will dispel any thoughts of how MUNDANE it is.
THEN...one day a jerk cut in front of me at the checkout counter to buy HIS beer ahead of MY eggs.
Slip that lil One Hand DeSerrated Trailmaster between the ribs and ....PRESTO! BAD boy RESPECK !!!
And besides, the Swiss army has never lost a war.
So, it's all in the ATTITUDE. An SAK waved threateningly in a crowd will dispel any thoughts of how MUNDANE it is.
Morgoth412 said:I will look closer at the grind tonight. I have to retract my statement then of it being the steel that makes SAK sharper feeling. :footinmou But hell, even if it is the grind and geometry they get SHARP!!
Sorry for stating the obvious - what makes a knife blade sharp is a combination of steel quality and geometry.
By "geometry" I don't mean merely the primary edge angle.
People spend way too much attention on the steel -
not that it's unimportant -
but the steel alone does NOT and canNOT possibly make a blade "magically" sharp(er).
It is true however, all other things being equal, a blade made with the steel "du jour" S30V will be sharp longer than a SAK steel blade.
- note the emphasized "all other things being equal" - they often are NOT - and it's the geometry that's makes the difference - a blade that's ground thin with good distal taper (so the blade does not get thicker toward the tip) keeping the steel thin at and near the edge makes a lot of difference.
Hollow grinds are very popular - because the blade is kept thin over more of its face/width - but most hollow grinds actually thicken toward the edge - therefore creating a distinct shoulder/discontinuity between the edge bevel and the blade face.......
Now if one only shaved hair to test for sharpness then the edge angle only becomes the primary criteria - so a hollow ground knife that thickens significantly toward the edge will be just as sharp as a zero bevel grind convex edge.
BUT we use knives to cut through things where the blade face comes into play - now the distinct step/shoulder/discontinuity between the edge bevel and face becomes significant - and that's why the zero edge bevel is reputed to be so "sharp" - because there is so little resistance when cutting through.
There aren't that many knives that match the (thin) blade geometry of the SAK - yet it's been around for more than 100 years -
The fact the SAK uses a steel that is by no stretch of the imagination "exotic"/"premium" - and is a compromise adequate general purpose blade steel - yet it can out cut many knives with those exotic steels shows how important the geometry is........
so may be the 100+ years' experience/history does count......
Cliff Stamp did some actual testing to illustrate this -
Geometry and proper sharpening vs steel quality
--
Vincent
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
t1mpani
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Like I said, all things being equal in blade/edge geometry. For those out there who are serious fans of this type of knife, I highly recommend trying the Scout from A.G. Russell--not many gadgets but the step up to properly hardened 154-CM in this type of blade is a notable one. I'd suggest a letter-writing campaign to Victorinox to ask for a steel upgrade for their main blades, but unfortunately--being about the most popular pocketknife in the world--their customer base is so large that even all the members of BF wouldn't be a large enough sample for them to notice. Really is a pity, because again they are superbly designed for cutting, and it'd be nice to see them with decent steel.
I note a serious sense of nostalgic....somethin' or other about the cheap stainless here. You do not have to get into "fancy designer steels" to get a major improvement. Hell 440C at 59RC would kick the (fill in the excrement slang term of your choice) out of what they're currently using.
I note a serious sense of nostalgic....somethin' or other about the cheap stainless here. You do not have to get into "fancy designer steels" to get a major improvement. Hell 440C at 59RC would kick the (fill in the excrement slang term of your choice) out of what they're currently using.
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If the A.G. camp knife only had a saw. Oh well.
There could be a downside to a higher end stainless steel blade. Victorinox may end up seeing a larger return of knives for repair, due to chipping out of the blade. It seems like the steels we crave most tend to chip out at the edge rather than roll over, especially with a blade as thin as a SAK. A rolled over edge is much easier to fix than a nasty chip. With the abuse a SAK takes, edge rollover may be the better of two evils.
There could be a downside to a higher end stainless steel blade. Victorinox may end up seeing a larger return of knives for repair, due to chipping out of the blade. It seems like the steels we crave most tend to chip out at the edge rather than roll over, especially with a blade as thin as a SAK. A rolled over edge is much easier to fix than a nasty chip. With the abuse a SAK takes, edge rollover may be the better of two evils.