Why are the old Buck 110/112 blades so hard to sharpen?

K

kelbro

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Mar 13, 2008
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I have labored for many hours on old Bucks over the years. I wouldn't do it if they didn't hold the edge so well. What is it about the steel that makes them so hard to sharpen?

I typically do a 30/40/50 tri-bevel on them. Is there a better method for a 'work' knife that also needs to be able to gut a deer on occasion?
 
Probably you have Bucks with the old 440C blades. They were tough to sharpen; I think I wore out several carborundum stones trying to put an edge on the stuff. Didn't have diamond hones back then. As you say, once you did get an edge on them it lasted a good long while.
 
Part of it was the old 440C, part of it was the heat-treat (the old ones were tempered harder than you see now) and if you are going back far enough, part of it was the edge grind. Back in the 60's and early 70's, Buck used an edge variously known as cannel, appleseed or convex edge. The easiest way to sharpen them was on a belt sander.
 
Most of the problem is the blade grind. The steel is not particularly hard. I believe the earlier ones were 420 stainless. The edges were ground very thick, leaving a "hump" at the very edge. I really think they: either didn't know how to grind blades, or- left the edge that thick because of their marketing showing a Buck knife being driven through a bolt with a hammer.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Most of the problem is the blade grind. The steel is not particularly hard. I believe the earlier ones were 420 stainless. The edges were ground very thick, leaving a "hump" at the very edge. I really think they: either didn't know how to grind blades, or- left the edge that thick because of their marketing showing a Buck knife being driven through a bolt with a hammer.
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I do not believe your steel ID to be correct. The early in-house-made Bucks were 440C.
They switched to 425M in ~1980 and switched again to 420HC in ~1985.

I used to have difficulty sharpening my Bucks back in that time period. I was using a soft Washita stone. Now that I use Aluminum oxide or diamond stones, I have no problems putting a good edge on them. I know a couple of fellas that back in those days switched from a 110 with its 440C blade to a Schrade look-alike in 440A because the 440A was so much easier to sharpen.

That being said, 440C has fairly large carbides that make for good edge holding but make it hard to achieve the fine edge you can so easily achieve with 420HC, which does not have carbides.
 
Thanks. Yes, the grind is a pain and I do remember them being much harder to sharpen on the old stones. Now that I have somewhat re-profiled them and have the new abrasives, they are much more manageable.

I have to admit that as a teen, I did hammer the 112 through a 3/8 bolt just to see if I could. Yes, it did and the marks are still there on the spine to remind me :) Barely chipped the blade but it took forever to hone the chips out. Ah... to be young and dumb again...
 
I've never found Buck knives either hard to sharpen, or worth a darn at holding an edge.


The oldest ones, made of 440C were the best at edge holding, but with good waterstones, they aren't hard to sharpen at all on the Edge-Pro.
 
The switch to 425M steel was made in 84 and the switch to 420HC was made in 1992 .
Yes, it is the edge as those were not fully hollow ground and were of 440C . Which does have good edge retention . I've rebeveled Buck's knives of that steel to 15* angle using Norton's coarse crystolon and DMT's X-coarse diamond and it was not easy on either stone (2.5"X11.5" the large stone) . It had to eat up alot of tough metal taking the most part of 2.5-3hrs. just on the coarse stone . That steel can be tricky to remove the burr which gives good edge retention when done . I've shaved with 440C blades, it gives a good shave and will take a fine edge . DM
 
The old 110s had what they called a semi-hollow grind that was thinned in the middle of the blade and then thickened again at the very edge. So you had to do a lot of grinding to thin that edge out again.
 
My dad gave me a Buck Stockman knife. He had it for a few ears before he gave it to me so it was probably from the early-mid 60's. When I sharpen it, the steel skates across the stone compared with some of my other knives.

I also have a 110 ~late 60's 0r early 70's. The steel on that it seems to be very hard too.

Ric
 
So far it seems that no one really knows what steel the blades are made of or how they're actually ground. No do we know when Buck switched to the various steels. :confused:
 
Sure we do, in the 60s and 70s they were 440C, in the 80s and early 90s they used 425M, and after that 420HC. They are all hollow ground, but the ones back in the day were left with a relatively thick edge.
 
Incahiker said:
Sure we do, in the 60s and 70s they were 440C, in the 80s and early 90s they used 425M, and after that 420HC. They are all hollow ground, but the ones back in the day were left with a relatively thick edge.
Click to expand...

I got the same thing out of the replies that were posted. :confused:
 
Did you guys really read the posts?

One post says that the earliest knives were 420.

One says that the early ones were 440C (my understanding that they were).

One post says that 425 started in 1980 and ended in 1985, then they went to 420hc.

Another says that 425 started in the 1984 and that the 420hc started in 1992.

What is a "semi" hollow grind? Never heard of it and can't find any reference to such a grind. It's either hollow ground or not. All hollow ground blades get thin in the middle of the grind and then thicker toward the edge of the blade. That's why the grind is called hollow.

Grinds that I am aware of:

Scandi
Hollow
Full Flat
High Flat
Saber
Full Convex
 
Sorry, got out of it what I needed. "What steel was used on my early Buck 110/112?" Didn't really pay much attention to the rest of it since it didn't apply to my question.
 
I know what you mean. I didn't mean to come across snippy, sometimes you lose inflection in print. ;)

I kind of got caught up in an issue (for no reason) that doesn't really concern me. I don't have any Buck's anymore, and when I did, I didn't have any problems sharpening them. Thanks to diamonds and thanks to my new Work Sharp, LOL.
 
My post about them having 420 was incorrect.
All hollow ground edges don't get thicker toward the edge- they should get thinner at the edge.
 
Well I did have trouble sharpening it for years, but I recently bought a Wicked Edge Precision Sharpener and it is nothing to sharpen it now. I do it 18 degees the side and it cuts like a razor. I can exactly repeat the angle every time I sharpen it because of the way this rig is built.
My old Buck is scarred but not bowed now...it cuts with the best of them except for some nicks in the blade, which I shall work out of there some day soon.

Cheers
Leo
 
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