Why Are'nt We Using More RWL-34??

R

rlinger

Joined
Mar 29, 2002
Messages
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I gotta say first I have tryed to promote it when the oppurtunity arises. I have had zero success in selling its use to any end user. It amazes me. The only knife I have so far tried to sell but have not been able to is made of RWL-34. It is 61 HRc and performs as well as ATS-34 at 59 - 60 HRc as far as edge chipping is concerned. It will out cut and out chop ATS-34; and at a point or even maybe two points higher in hardness. The extra expense in RWL compared to ATS is real but then we spend even more for CPM steels. I have spent many long hours experimenting with RWL-34. It is the real deal. I have no or little idea how well it would perform as a large blade but as a hunter and smaller it is, as I stated, the real deal.

Now, after all that - I do realise that many of us here are high or simple carbon steel knife makers and that us stainless guys are sometimes apart from your likes. Please don't think I have little respect for your steels. I most certainly do have.

Anybody here making RWL-34 knives?

RL
 
I do and have been using it since 97 or something....I also use other steels but it is my main choice....I use it for everything....folders and fighters...works great...I have no problem selling it either...but I am also pussled why it has not become a more popular steel to use...
 
Anso, thank you very much for chimming in. I would, of course, expect it more popular in the area of its manufacture. I really mean this: I am very impressed with RWL-34. It first came to me as a recommendation based on its manufacture. Also, it was taughted as taking a 'mercury' finish. As far as the 'mercury' finish goes I see not a lot of difference between fine polishing RWL and ATS. RWL may polish up a bit easier but not enough more for me to champion it for that reason. I am impressed that you say you like it in larger blade sizes too.

I have not been happy with the heat treat recommendations supplied by our state side supplier (Damasteel). I found it very lacking and not to be correct.
Soak times are way short and the rest is inconcise. I would be very interested in your HT proceedure and hope you would be willing to share it with all us here on BF Shop Talk. I, of course, will do the same.

RL
 
it may be that it is only available from ONE supplier in the US..? I even hear about US makers getting RWL and Damasteel from Canada and Germany to save cost...???

I have a the excact heattreatinfo from my pro heattreater somewhere...will post it as soon as I find it...hopefully later today...
 
Anso, please forgive my presumption. I just assumed you did your own heat treating. Yes though, please do post all HT info you have available. In the the mean time I will go ahead and post a killer recipie for a 1/8 inch blade stock.

Give me a couple moments to dig it out and I will edit it to this post.

RL

EDIT:

This is a hunter size knife in 1/8th inch bar stock of RWL-34
----------------
Foil wrapped

Stress relieve: ramp @ 1800 F per hour, hold @ 1200 F / 2 hours, still air cool

Pre-heat: Ramp @ 700 F per hour, hold @ 1400 F / 5 min. (That is what I did according to my notes but I suggest 7 minutes instead of only 5)

Austenitize: 1950 F / 25 minutes

Rapid air quench: Use a good air flow.

Snap temper: 350 F / 1 hour (that is what my notes show but I now snap temper high alloy steel at only 300 F for 1 hour)

Deep cryo: minimum 12 hours (if using dry ice instead of a deep cryo dry ice the steel as long as you can preserve the ice - I have gotten almost two days with dry ice. Deep cryo I think to be best and do not expect the same final Rockwell hardness if not deep cryogenically treating the steel)

Temper: 525 F / 2 hours

Temper: 525 F / 2 hours (I usually secondary temper @ 25 to 50 degrees F lower than primary temper, but the notes for this blade show I tempered the same for both temper sessions)

Rockwell hardness testing: 61 HRc
------------------------

My notes show that I got a HRc of 60 after snap temper, 63.5 after deep cryo, 61 after primary temper and 61 after secondary temper. I do not believe the secondary temper reading is absolutely correct. I base that on experience and presume I got faked out on that last reading. I would guess that the real Rockwell after second temper to be closer to 60.5 HRc.

The exact same recipie above can well be used for 154CM and ATS-34 with good to great results. The final hardness will be about 1 to 1.5 HRc points lower (expect about 59 - 60 HRc using 154CM or ATS-34 - RAPID AIR QUENCHING). Regardless of what steel, high alloy or otherwise, be sure to ramp from end of preheat to austenitizing soak as quickly as possible.

There is a reason for the preheat cycle (again, regardless of whether it be high alloy steel or not). The steel will expand during the transition through its 'peheat' range. At austenitizing temperatures the steel will do the opposite. It will contact. If not allowed to preheat long enough to expand throughout its cross section an expansion and contraction within the steel body can occur simultaniously if allowed to achieve austenitizing temperature prematurely. Within some steel data sheets it is refered to as equalize at such a temperature. Other sheets explain it as equalize at a particular preheat temperature or preheat until equalized. It is also important not to over preheat and after preheat get to austenitizing temperature without more delay than necessary.


RL
 
I would guess it's more of a price / distribution thing. The price is Euro based and the US$ is so low right now that EVERYTHING coming from Euroland is gonna cost a boatload of dough. It makes it tough to sell my knives in the USA because my prices are artificially inflated by the exchange rate.

RWL-34 is an excellent steel that is also very easy to work. It takes a fine finish too.

But still if you want the best cutting steel in the world for sporting knives, you want CPM S90V from the good old US of A! Once I use up my stock of BG-42 I think I will only offer S90V for stainless blades. All these steels are expensive, so you might as well use the best.
 
Looking at the composition of RWL-34 and154CM the only significant difference is that RWL-34 has a small amount of vanadium which will produce a finer grain. But that can produce improvements in performance as you have found.
 
mete said:
Looking at the composition of RWL-34 and154CM the only significant difference is that RWL-34 has a small amount of vanadium which will produce a finer grain. But that can produce improvements in performance as you have found.
Click to expand...

RWL-34 is also produced with the powder metal process, 154 CM is a melted steel.

Wheher or not that makes a lot of difference to the user of a sporting knife... I dont know.
 
Kevin, in the Crucible CPM series the P is for Particle not powder ,as is often misstated. Is the RWL-34 particle or powder ? Damasteel is made from powder put into a crucible then compressed. CPM is made by spraying molten steel into an ingot mold which means a smaller carbide size and more evenly distributed carbides [see comparative photos in www.crucibleservice.com ] If RWL-34 is powder do you have a source of photos of the microstructure ? CPM certainly makes a difference in performance that's why I'm a fan of S30V.......BTW those kitchen knives - if they were made of S30V I'd be interested....You can't be too bad a guy if you were an Alfa mechanic !
 
mete said:
Kevin, in the Crucible CPM series the P is for Particle not powder ,as is often misstated. Is the RWL-34 particle or powder ? Damasteel is made from powder put into a crucible then compressed. CPM is made by spraying molten steel into an ingot mold which means a smaller carbide size and more evenly distributed carbides [see comparative photos in www.crucibleservice.com ] If RWL-34 is powder do you have a source of photos of the microstructure ? CPM certainly makes a difference in performance that's why I'm a fan of S30V.......BTW those kitchen knives - if they were made of S30V I'd be interested....You can't be too bad a guy if you were an Alfa mechanic !
Click to expand...


My reading on RWL has been in German and the word used is "powder" but it could also translate perhaps as particle. I believe the RWL is made from powder which is sintered. You may be able to get more information on RWL directly from the Damasteel folks who I believe make the RWL:

http://www.damasteel.se/

I like the S90V best although it resists being worked on!

I am working on stainless kitchen knives! I have some test plate coming which is a proprietary alloy used in the production of large industrail knives in the food processing industry. The steel is made in Remscheid, Germany. I can obtain it from a factory which makes industrial knives and I know who does their heat treating too. This steel is used for knives which cut - for example - frozen meat 24 hours a day, so it is some tough stuff. The advantage it has, it is certified for use in food service industry by the German Govt. Legally, kitchen knives must be made from a certified steel to be used commercially. S30V is not and would probobly get some rust. So I will try the other steel and if it works, I can order a big plate of it. Costs real dough however. I may even make a folder or 2 out of the stuff! I used a pices years ago for a big Bowie knife and it made one heck of a tough blade. I know because the owner still uses it.
 
I'm trying to find info on RWL-34 but not too succesful. According to Wolf ( www.wolf-borger-messer.de ) RWL-34 has smaller carbides than CPM steels ??? At times even I am confused by some of the terminology used in info about steels . At this point I am assuming that the CPM steel is made the same as RWL-34 , I'm still tracking that down.In any case smaller , more evenly distributed carbides are better for a number of reasons and would explain the better performance of RWL-34 over 154CM.
 
I really like RWL-34 and for all purposes it is the same as 154CM or ATS-34. The diffference I like is the deep mirror finish is gives with out the large, blotchy look that ATS-34 often gives and 154CM occasionally gives. Some one coined the phrase liquid mercury finish and I'd have to agree.
Jens is lucky to get his in Europe at such a good price.

Jerry Hossum hinted awhile ago that Crucible 154CM would switch to (or offer) particle smelting which would be the same as RWL34 and give the same fine finish. This was supposed to be revealed or shown at Blade. Maybe some one talked to the Crucible boys there and can confirm this. Since Jerry seems to have a fairly close relationship with them, I'd take it to be reliable information, it's just a matter of when. When Crucible goes to particle smelting with 154CM, it will probably take much of the currrent ATS34 business unless the cost is much higher.
 
Roger you just might get this ole fart started on it.. :)

this is what you had on the Knife making site.

clean it up as you like and I'll repost it.

at http://www.knivesby.com/RWL-34.html
Damasteel RWL-34
spec's By Roger Linger
RWL-34 Heat Treat Sample
---------------------------------------
Equipment used:
------------------------
18 inches deep model Evenheat knife makers oven with RampMaster II controller.
Also used for tempering.
Liquid nitrogen dewar
------------------------
Steel: RWL-34 bar stock, 0.140 inch thick, purchased from Damasteel
Steel size for heat treat sample: 1.5 X 0.75 X 0.138
Machining before heat treat: cut to width, debur edges, drill hanger hole (for cryo hanging), lightly grind front and back to 220 grit
-------------------------------------
Special Notes:
---------------------
The test RWL-34 sample was single foil wrapped in 2000 F. degree heat treat 0.002 inch thick stainless foil.
The test piece remained in foil through quench and was removed before deep cryogenic treatment
The sample was placed in cool oven and remained there until time to quench.
The oven was programmed to ramp at maximum ramp speed.
The Evenheat oven used ramped from 1900 F. to 1950 F. degrees in approximately 5 ½ minutes.
Although there was minor machining (above) no normalization cycle was incorporated in this sample heat treat.
Tempers listed are stated as 2 hours per but the actual time from placing the steel in pre-heated temper oven and removing
is close to 2 hours 5 minutes per.
The amount of time in cryogenic treatment was dependent on my being here to remove it so long as the time in treatment is
no less than 12 hours and no more than 20 hours. I doubt the time listed below is crucial but I would not have let it
be less than 12 hours.
----------------------------------
RWL-34 Heat Treat
----------------------------
Ramp to equalize
Equalize: 1400 F. / 7 minutes
Ramp to target temperature
Austenitise: 1950 F. / 25 minutes
Quench to Cool: 3/4 inch aluminum plates with RWL-34 sandwiched between and under weight
Deep Cryogenic treatment: liquid nitrogen, 17 1/2 hours
Still air warm to room temperature
Temper immediately: 450 F. / 2 hours
Still air cool
Temper: 450 F. / 2 hours
----------------------------------
Rockwell testing after first temper: 63.5 HRc
Rockwell testing after second temper: 62 HRc
 
OK Rodger ....I may break tradition. I have been thinking about making a new boat knife and I might try it. (I don't want to forge any of my spinnerbaits :footinmou ) I'm gonna send it to you to heat treat though. :D

Who's got good prices on 1/8 X1" stock?
 
I was hoping there was another source. I wonder if the same fellow is their rep as the last time?
 
My guess is the reason not many people are using it, is because it isn't readily available. I usually buy a lot of steel at the same time. I don't even know where to get RWL-34. I have heard talk that it is very expensive. I have been very interested in trying some. In fact I have a little design I think I want to make for myself, and i was contemplating getting some just for the finishing properties it supposedly posseses, but I did a little searching of my favorite vendors and didn't see any.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
all fascinating information....are there any other suppliers? Do you have a link for damasteel?
 
Daniel Koster said:
all fascinating information....are there any other suppliers? Do you have a link for damasteel?
Click to expand...

I posted a link for Damasteel (who make RWL) above in this forum.

You might also try Stefan Steigerwald his website is also in english:

http://www.steigerwald-messer.de/

He is a very good fellow to deal with and if several of you combined your order, it might make sense to drop him an email. Maybe he can make you guys a bulk deal.
 
a couple of years ago I offered on a different forum to make a large order directly at the factory to get a good price and then distribute to the people on the forum that where interested. Well the deal went bonkers since the US distributer found out and complained to the factory about his monopoly was being broken...the deal never came trough because of that.........I thought it was a good idea back then and still think it would be a good idea....
 
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