Hey guys. Just curious, but I have seen a couple threads lately that talk about knives being cleaned and in one thread a poster said it was "...a shame," but I don't understand why this is. I assume by cleaning they mean restoring, but does this damage the knife physically or make it otherwise undesirable? Why is this not something desirable or good to do? Along the same lines, is there a reliable way to tell if a knife has been cleaned or does spotting it just come with experience?
Why does cleaning knives devalue them?
- Thread starter stdwdh16
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Most knowledgeable collectors frown on the alteration/metal removal caused by "cleaning" of vintage knives. I agree in theory as well. The truth of the matter is cleaned knives probably appeal to a larger (albeit less informed) audience than the same knives left uncleaned. This was especially true in the earlier days of Ebay.
Unfortunately, "cleaning" a knife does NOT mean just getting the old caked on gunk and dried oil off of it. "Cleaning" means grinding, sanding, and usually extreme buffing of the blades and handle. It is closer in nature to "cleaning" an original Tiffany lamp with Brasso to get rid of all that green patina -- or taking a power sander to a fine piece of 18th century furniture "to get off all that old finish" and then refinishing it with spray on polyurethane. Once an antique knife is "cleaned", about all you can normally say about it is that it is now shiny. All the original grinds and finishes are now gone, all the skill by which it was constructed and detailed are blurred and/or eliminated - usually by rounding everything off to oblivion with a soft buffer. All THIS is why we HATE cleaned antique knives.
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Having spent over 35 years in the antiques business I've had this discussion many times before. IMO what it comes down to is, the more valuable the piece the more you want to stay away from ANY alteration. I have sold early cupboards for thousands of dollars, had they been touched in any way like surface removal the piece would have been devalued to a point where only people who didn't have a clue would have purchased the piece, and for MUCH less than it's true value. When a piece is refinished it also opens the door for replacement parts being added making it harder for the untrained eye to know what has been done to the piece opening the door for out and out fakes. I believe I am the person who called it a shame, that is the way I feel.
Best regards
Robin
Best regards
Robin
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True and an excellent point, but is the item more valuable because of it's condition or the knowledge of the collector base for that particular item and price point? Or both
True and an excellent point, but is the item more valuable because of it's condition or the knowledge of the collector base for that particular item and price point? Or both
I believe it is both at least in the antiques business. Original condition pieces are much rarer than altered pieces so the search for the pot of gold takes knowledge that the average collector of "stuff" is not prepared to gather.
Availability is often the rarest commodity so when it comes on the market untouched it will almost always go for top dollars. Many collectors in the know will pay considerably more than recent value for the piece they have looked for or waited for for many years. Geez, I think i'm rambling. I'll stop now ;-)
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Robin
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Pipeman,
Thanks for your input and opinion. I agree with you 100%, though I certainly don't claim to have your experience. When I used to dabble in vintage Keen Kutter knives I NEVER sold my best pieces online, I always sold them in person to people who knew what they were looking at. The casual collectors that just wanted a Keen Kutter because their grandfather used to have one always seemed to want shiny knives
Thanks for your input and opinion. I agree with you 100%, though I certainly don't claim to have your experience. When I used to dabble in vintage Keen Kutter knives I NEVER sold my best pieces online, I always sold them in person to people who knew what they were looking at. The casual collectors that just wanted a Keen Kutter because their grandfather used to have one always seemed to want shiny knives
My knowledge is in specific areas of the antiques business, my knife addiction is a recent thing. I very much regret not studying knives much earlier. The one thing I will say is the antiques business is by far driven by the lower end "stuff" and not the high end original pieces. I believe this is why the people who ruin great furniture and knives argue their point so vehemently. There are also many pieces on the market that in fact are more valuable (saleable) when refinished such as a simple nailed together pine cuboard with ten coats of paint layered on.
Best regards
Robin
Best regards
Robin
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Bringing the conversation back to the question (Elliott where are you
)One of the biggest reasons collectors shy away from cleaned knives is because once one part of the knife is suspect the whole knife becomes suspect which is right next door to counterfeit. There is a such thing as an honest restoration, but it's not commonly seen and the only real difference is the intent of the cleaner or seller of the knife.
Other signs of a cleaned slipjoint are shallow nail nicks, recut choils and faint markings to name a few. Check out Bernard Levine's Knife Collecting & Identification forum to learn a lot more.
Last week, there was a show called "Pawn Stars" on the history channel. Some guy took two WW1 era combat knives in to sell. Because the shop owner wasn't very knowledgeable about knives, he called a friend, and because one of the knives had been buffed, polished, and sealed with a lacquer or something, the value of the knife tanked. It was a shame, because had the knife been left alone, both would have brought the guy 3 grand.
I will use MetalGlo, United Cutlery's blade polish/cleaner, on blades so I can see the maker's mark, model, etc, and if there is a lot of gunk, that is tangible and too evident to touch, I will get that off too. I won't mess with the handle, or attempt to switch out parts, as I like my knives as original as possible. Not all my knives are worth much to the collectors market, but because they were gifts, or I had busted my butt to buy it myself, they are special to me, and that's what really matters.
I will use MetalGlo, United Cutlery's blade polish/cleaner, on blades so I can see the maker's mark, model, etc, and if there is a lot of gunk, that is tangible and too evident to touch, I will get that off too. I won't mess with the handle, or attempt to switch out parts, as I like my knives as original as possible. Not all my knives are worth much to the collectors market, but because they were gifts, or I had busted my butt to buy it myself, they are special to me, and that's what really matters.
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Well said zerogee :thumbup::thumbup:
There are a LOT of very worthy old knives about, used..full profile blades, all original, It's such a shame when they get messed about with.
Any knife that's been cleaned or worked upon can easily be spotted, blade surface sheen, flat looking..wavy edges..destroys value.
Mick
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Not familiar with metal glo, but if it's anything like MAAS or Flitz, it destroys the finish.
EDIT---I'm referring to old crocus and/or glaze finishes. All of those polishing compounds that come in metal toothpaste tubes destroy them.
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X2. You just wantto get the red rust off. Mineral oil.If it's raised you can scrape it off with a stainless blade if you'recareful not to scratch it.
The easiest way to understand why not to clean, is to watch a few Antiques Roadshow episodes.
So many times I've seen where some person has a "Federalist so and so made chest". The expert goes on to tell the person that it would normally bring 50 to 60 thousand dollars at auction. But... this one had been 'refinished' and cleaned up by some past owner, so now it is worth 300 to 400 dollars if that.
After watching Antques Roadshow, I know if I run into something old, be it gun, knife, furniture, I don't touch it. Maybe a wipe down with a cloth and some oil, but nothing more.
If in doubt, don't touch it.
So many times I've seen where some person has a "Federalist so and so made chest". The expert goes on to tell the person that it would normally bring 50 to 60 thousand dollars at auction. But... this one had been 'refinished' and cleaned up by some past owner, so now it is worth 300 to 400 dollars if that.
After watching Antques Roadshow, I know if I run into something old, be it gun, knife, furniture, I don't touch it. Maybe a wipe down with a cloth and some oil, but nothing more.
If in doubt, don't touch it.
I remember a roadshow from the west coast. The chap who owned the piece
( a Dunlop Queen Anne drake foot chest on frame) was very puffed up about having paid $5000.00 dollars having the grotty old finish removed. The piece was worth $80,000.00 to $100,000.00 untouched, after cleaning maybe $7000.00. He still argued that is was ugly prior to cleaning it, much like knife cleaners do.
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Robin
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Wow, now, that's a discount!!