Why don't more sharpening pros use ceramic bench stones?

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maximus83

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Nov 7, 2011
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Just curious--in all of the discussion around sharpening here in the forum, I don't see many folks using or recommending the use of large ceramic benchstones (like those by Spyderco) as part of a multi-stone sharpening setup. I assume if you did use them, the ceramic hones would cover more of the "fine" end of the sharpening spectrum, and you'd still need other stones for coarse and profiling work.

Is there a common reason for that? Do ceramic stones have significant disadvantages versus the other options like water stones and diamond stones?
 
Sintered ceramics are generally best reserved for final apexing. Their extreme hardness and slow cut rate makes them ill suited for all but the final stages of sharpening.
 
I don't sharpen professionally, but I sharpen a lot of knives, and have a lot of different abrasive choices. My thinking is-

Most guys don't charge that much to sharpen a knife, and ceramics are one of the slowest cutting abrasives around except for arkansas stones.

So why would you hamper yourself by using a slow cutting medium when you could use something else that enables you to spend less time and gives a better/equivalent edge that satisfies your customer, while you have less time($) involved in it?
 
Why not use ceramic rather than water stones
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Well I know what you mean but I think Shaptons are pretty much ceramic stones though they are friable (sp).
The more solid Spydercos are good for touching up blades that are nearly sharp, even burnishing the edge to some degree but they do load fast and then need to be scrubbed with cleanser to clear the pores.
Think of the Shaptons and other water stones as having their own built in cleanser that comes out and clears the pores of the stone.

Or think of diamond stones that just go and go without loadeing unlike a solid (non friable) ceramic stone; no recesses/pores to load just lots of little sharp peaks with (relatively) lots of space between the peaks. Scratchy though and USELESS for burnishing.

I hope that makes some sense.
I use the Spyderco ultra fine ceramic triangle rod about any time I sharpen except not on high vanadium alloys.
If I had a stack of blades to do however I probably wouldn't use the ceramic but would stick with friable fine grit water stones.
 
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I'm not pro sharpener, but a maker, so maybe I do sharpen professionally? When you say ceramic, I take that to mean the solid sintered stones like Spyderco medium, fine, and extra fine. As stated those stones are very hard and are best for the actual apexing of the edge. Besides the medium stone (and even the medium to some small extent) they are slower (seemingly) in their cutting speed, so not a good choice when a bevel needs to be cut (or repairs or a very dull blade). Stones that are more friable are generally better here. Setting/creating that initial bevel goes by more quickly with softer stones. Softer stones don't apex well (you can apex....but it's more difficult and requires good skill, light pressure and al that).

Often when I create an edge on a new knife I like to use soft stones that are friable and expose fresh abrasive rapidly, from 120 grit and up (I'll stop at whatever grit I want the edge bevel polish at....here it's mostly about aesthetics and presentation....but in all truth, most of my pre sharpening edge width is so small that you can barely even see the edge bevel itself so no real need to go super polished). Usually this is all done at a lower angle of maybe 10per side, and will go ahead and apex with whatever stone in that progression ends up actually apexing. It may be at 400 or 1000....doesn't matter. Then I will very lightly dull that "pre" apex on a stone to establish a little "meat" for the actual apex (the edge of the edge). Then I raise a tad, maybe 13 or 15 per side, and do the actual apexing with those very hard ceramic stones. They are the invaluable to most of my sharpening sessions. That and the EEF DMT diamond plate. Very hard stone at a fine grit rating that makes apexing a breeze.

But there are quite a few "ceramic" bonded stones that aren't solid ceramic, softer in their bond. In general, the way I see it (currently....always learning), soft stones work best for the grunt work, harder stones work best after the soft stones, to do the actual edge apex.
 
They are good stones but to hard and cause too much burnishing and deformation. I've had them chip some harder steels too.

I prefer my Shapton Glass because they are hard kinda like a Spyderco ceramic but still release abrasive so they are more gentle on the edge. Plus, they have a grit range from 120-30,000 grit.
 
maximus83 said:
Just curious--in all of the discussion around sharpening here in the forum, I don't see many folks using or recommending the use of large ceramic benchstones (like those by Spyderco) as part of a multi-stone sharpening setup. I assume if you did use them, the ceramic hones would cover more of the "fine" end of the sharpening spectrum, and you'd still need other stones for coarse and profiling work.

Is there a common reason for that? Do ceramic stones have significant disadvantages versus the other options like water stones and diamond stones?
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( Not a pro, just an enthusiastic hobbyist. :) )

I relied mainly on Spyderco's ceramic hones early on, when I started becoming interested in knives and (my feeble attempts at) sharpening. My first and most-used hone was a Spyderco DoubleStuff hone. At the time, I found them to be useful, at least for touching up my own edges to 'adequately sharp', which was roughly a light-year better than what I was used to. As such, I was pretty satisfied with them. In that period, I also bought Medium and Fine Spyderco bench hones, which I've almost never used since then.

In the years since, I've sort of distanced myself from ceramics like these, because I've found there are other ways to refine & polish my knife edges, without the inherent and frequent vulnerability to burring or other edge damage caused on ceramics, if one's touch isn't almost perfectly light and the angle steadily held on each and every pass. Even now that my own skills have improved, I find myself constantly on the lookout for burring after using them, and spending more time cleaning burrs up than I should. I can accomplish the same, or even better, degree of refinement on a hard strop with compound, using materials such as wood, denim/linen on wood, or paper over glass. And with all these, nowhere near the same vulnerability to burring, edge-rolling or chipping. In fact, these are some of the best means to eliminate burrs quickly and completely, as well as bring up a high polish, if I'm pursuing that.


David
 
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(Not a pro either, also an enthusiastic hobbyist although less patient than David. Mediocre at best :()

Most success I have with the Spyderco ceramics on my Sharpmaker actually. I guess I can have an extreme light touch (the vertical approach makes a light touch way easier) this way. But still, they load quickly, then burnish more than cut. A very hard, non friable surface contributes to their infamous burr creation as well.

On the other hand, if I think of JDavis, Michael Christy, Steeldrake and others - they use them quite a bit with escellent results mind you - I am talking hair whittling freehand. However, for them it is always a component of a complex sharpening process, not so much used as an aggressive reprofiler or edge renewer - if that makes sense.

All this can be archived with different abrasives in the right hands.
 
I really love sintered ceramics for apexing, but it's all in just using light strokes. I usually use something of a loose fanning motion from the elbow with the stone in my off hand. We're actually working on getting some produced, but it's a costly material to work in. However, the different ceramics we're working with have given me some of the crispest, cleanest apexes that I've ever experienced, and are akin to a faster cutting version of a high-grade natural razor hone. If overused, the hardness of sintered ceramics can cause burring and burnishing, but that's also tied to how sintered ceramics don't shed grit, so they do occasionally need refreshing to expose new grit. They can be a very powerful tool in your sharpening arsenal, but only if employed correctly.
 
Agreed. I like their economy with low wear and have thought some on the medium only. I have the fine and ultra fine. They are expensive, low wear and slow cutting. But my customers don't ask for that type edge. They ask for the edge in the other direction. A general use edge. Plus, I already have a 800 grit India and a 600 grit SiC stone. Which I could jump from these to the Spyderco fine ceramic. That's why I never went to the 600 grit Spyderco ceramic. DM
 
I find apexing on a sintered ceramic off of coarser grits still works well and doesn't erase a toothy scratch pattern. Give it a try sometime! :)
 
Thanks 42. Do you think the medium would work to refine vanadium steels? Like s30v, s60v and s90v? I know SiC does. It, being (the Spyderco) a aluminum oxide with higher hardness than a Norton India.? Thanks, DM
 
After some research i have come to the conclusion that its best to use something like DMT diamond benchstones followed by ceramic benchstones (spyderco, etc) and finaly by a strop.

Sharpening freehand is OK if its for you but if you using it for a customer and charging for it the angles better be same and as perfect as it can be. Thats why imo most sharpening service providers use guided systems. Dont have any proof just guessing/educated guess.
 
Ceramic hones are slow, they load up, they change over time and reconditioning them is no fun, they are prone to burnishing due to high hardness and comparatively low abrasive potential - they take more time when grinding/polishing and more time to QC.

I like the edge but there are much faster and more reliable ways of getting there.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
( Not a pro, just an enthusiastic hobbyist. :) )

I relied mainly on Spyderco's ceramic hones early on, when I started becoming interested in knives and (my feeble attempts at) sharpening. My first and most-used hone was a Spyderco DoubleStuff hone. At the time, I found them to be useful, at least for touching up my own edges to 'adequately sharp', which was roughly a light-year better than what I was used to. As such, I was pretty satisfied with them. In that period, I also bought Medium and Fine Spyderco bench hones, which I've almost never used since then.

In the years since, I've sort of distanced myself from ceramics like these, because I've found there are other ways to refine & polish my knife edges, without the inherent and frequent vulnerability to burring or other edge damage caused on ceramics, if one's touch isn't almost perfectly light and the angle steadily held on each and every pass. Even now that my own skills have improved, I find myself constantly on the lookout for burring after using them, and spending more time cleaning burrs up than I should. I can accomplish the same, or even better, degree of refinement on a hard strop with compound, using materials such as wood, denim/linen on wood, or paper over glass. And with all these, nowhere near the same vulnerability to burring, edge-rolling or chipping. In fact, these are some of the best means to eliminate burrs quickly and completely, as well as bring up a high polish, if I'm pursuing that.


David
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So what did you switch to for your main sharpening?
 
Lapedog said:
So what did you switch to for your main sharpening?
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Diamond hones initially; then sandpaper, then SiC & AlOx oil stones and natural (Arkansas) stones.

Aside from the burring/edge damage vulnerability already mentioned for ceramics, I switched to other means due to the fact that the sintered ceramics like the Spyderco stones don't work well for initial-stage sharpening anyway, which warrants a coarser-grit, more aggressive stone.


David
 
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Recently did a 20° inclusive edge on 1.2519 petty knife, no back bevel or micro, just a regular 10° per side edge. Used an India on the coarse and then fine, then raised the angle just a smidge (I dont know exactly how much it was raised....less than a degree....exactly the width of 2 pieces of blue tape hint hint), and then apexed with the Spyderco ceramic fine and ultra fine. I was blown away by that edge...so much so I wanted to start a thread just tell everyone about it! But I bet many, many of you have tried that one. If you haven't, give it a go.
 
David Martin said:
Thanks 42. Do you think the medium would work to refine vanadium steels? Like s30v, s60v and s90v? I know SiC does. It, being (the Spyderco) a aluminum oxide with higher hardness than a Norton India.? Thanks, DM
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Only use it for the final passes to apex.
 
Ceramic stone. Spyderco Ultra Fine Triangle.
Allow me to give you a forzample :
My brand new Case Trapper in Chrome Vanadium (CV) = basically high carbon steel that will rust; not particularly hard. A couple of days ago I sharpened it on the Edge Pro = sharpened it right for the first time. I took the bevel angle back some; not particularly shallow but some. Did a halfast polish on it to Shapton Glass 4000. Whittling.

Used it at work the last two days. Came home to night to find the edge had rolled some.
I pulled out the ceramic UF triangle rod and took the roll off and got a bur. Going edge leading I just could not get the bur off and did not want to go steeper (that would probably have took it off).

I whipped out my little chunk of USA made Norton 8,000 water stone (new ones are made in Mexico now).
In no time I had taken off the bur effortlessly and the knife was whittling again. Seemed to be a touch better edge than off the Edge Pro using the Shapton Glass.

If I had stuck with the ceramic rod FOR THIS STEEL I would still be there flipping that bur back and forth even though I was going edge leading. For other steel alloys the bur would have formed and soon would have come off and I would have stopped there.

Just depends.

I will say I love that Norton 8000 though.
I find the Ceramic triangle very useful most of the time.

PS: before I started the ceramic rod was very clean from using cleanser on it before putting it away from the previous session.
 
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