Why is it once you use oil, you never use water?

Ten95Fanboy

Ten95Fanboy

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I have a couple of new Arkansas Natural Stones that I've only barely broken in. I started out with regular honing oil on them.

I've read numerous posts that say once you use oil on them, you never change to water. What I'm more interested in, however, is if you've used oil, can you use something like either pure Simple Green, or a somewhat diluted mixture of Simple Green and water?

If not, what's the general reasoning for not going away from oil once it's been used?
 
The old saying was that once you use oil, you can't go back to water. I have never used oil, so I can't confirm that.

I am trying to figure out why you would use a corrosive cleaner like simple green on steel, even if it is stainless.
 
Ten95Fanboy said:
I've read numerous (translation: lots of) threads mentioning SG as a honing solution.
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Interesting. On the one hand someone mentions using oil because it is less corrosive than water and the other mentions simple green which is more corrosive. I am interested in responses from people that use SG.
 
I never heard any sensible reason why you couldn't go back and forth from water to oil. Oil tends to be a bit cloggy on some stones so I haven't used oil since I was a kid. I have heard of using Simple green to clean titanium but I cannot see why it would be better than water for a stone.
 
I think it's the simple mechanics of oil repelling water. Stones are porous and absorb water or oil. Water will dry out of the stone but oil won't and once oil occupies the space in the stone, water can't get in. Can't say I've ever tried it though as I always water, so we'll call that an untested hypothesis from me.

Never heard of using simple green. Not going to try myself as I'm happy with results from water but curious why others might. Curious to see where this goes.
 
I would say that the idea that once you've used oil on a stone you absolutely cannot or should not under any circumstances use water on it is a myth. I've used oil on both India stones and Arkansas stones, then later used water on the same stone, and noticed no significant difference in ease of sharpening, swarf buildup on the stone, or speed of sharpening. However, once oil gets in a stone, the stone tends to absorb much less water than on a non-oily stone; this, though, doesn't make much if any difference in the stone's ability to do the aforementioned things, in my experience. In my experience, neither oil or water has an incredible advantage over the other, save that water is much easier to clean up, and is nearly free.
 
Yeah once you put oil in a stone, it's basically going to have some oil in it forever. You're never going to get it out completely. This will have some affect on the stone's ability to absorb water, because as the old saying goes: "oil and water don't mix". The oil naturally repels the water. In practice though, worst case scenario is that you're just constantly splashing water on the stone. You may find it annoying. Maybe. You can still sharpen your knife on it though.

The advantage of oil is that it doesn't dry up in the same way that water does.
 
My theory is that the embedded oil makes the water bead up. And because the water isn't coating the stone, the swarf clogs up the stone more. You want a watery or oily mix to make cleaning up easier.
Until the stone is clogged up, sharpening should be fine.
 
I've been in discussions with guys restoring old razor water stones that had been used with oil. There are a few natural stones from Europe that act very similarly to Japanese water stones, basically different compositions of relatively soft sedimentary stone, and were often also used as large bench stones many years ago. Those stones don't do as well with oil since you wouldn't use oil as a flushing agent, where as with water, you keep the stone clean up until you want to intentionally load the stone with swarf to make it act as higher grit (mudding or similar terms). In theory you can do this with manufactured aluminum oxide stones (most man-made "oil stones") but the grits tend to be low enough that it's not really worth doing. Basically, you can get enough of the oil out of a stone to get it back to useful with water, but it's a lot of effort, and the stone then stinks of the solvent (often kerosene) for a long time after, and if you use the home oven a heat source, you may end up in the doghouse, if you follow me. Since the water will no longer act as a flushing agent, the stone will essentially remain glazed, and depending on the oil, as it degrades, you basically end up with a grease, or very fine grinding compound filling the top of the stone. It's still abrasive, but at such a high grit that apart from very clean high carbon steels, you might as well be sharpening with brasso.
That is the long way of saying that you can get a natural stone to a point that you can use it with water again, most manmade al-ox stones really don't benefit from the use of only water, just use whatever fits your method, and the old saying is from the days before diamond and ceramic stones, so take them all with a grain of salt. If I had no other choice and needed a lube, I'd throw some oil on my DMT or ceramic stones without any worry, since in both of those cases, the breakdown of the surface has nothing to do with the sharpening, save over a very long timeframe, and you generally want them as aggressive as possible. I also won't be getting oil anywhere near my naniwa 10k.
 
If it'll help get my knives sharper: I'll piss on the dang stones...
 
Porous stones used previously with oil can sometimes be cleaned sufficiently at/near the surface, to make use with water less problematic. A really oily stone will make water bead up on the surface, which basically negates the advantages of using water for sharpening. But with hot water, liquid dish detergent and a stiff brush, the surface of the stone can sometimes be cleaned well enough that water or other wet solutions won't bead up. I mention this, because I've tried it myself.

I've also verified that oil will do a much better job actually suspending swarf on the stone, which in turn will make it easier to keep the stone unclogged and cutting aggressively. It occurred to me, at one time, when I was using a porous stone originally meant for oiled use at the sink for sharpening with water, that the swarf I was rinsing from the stone would immediately sink to the bottom of the sink. Point being, the water wasn't capable of actually suspending the steel swarf at all, even temporarily. That's when it clicked in my mind that it wouldn't suspend swarf on the stone either, and swarf would immediately settle deeply into the pores of the stone. That's something I could actually see, BTW, after cleaning & drying the stone - the swarf clogging the pores was visible on the dry stone. By contrast, if the surface of the stone is oiled, you can actually see the oil suspending the swarf so it can easily be wiped away periodically (a microfiber towel is great for this).

As for the Simple Green mentioned earlier (edited 21-NOV-2023):
Simple Green is alkaline in pH, enough to be caustic. It'll induce rust-spotting on non-stainless blades. I found that out the hard way, sharpening a 1095 blade on a natural stone using Simple Green for lubrication. It's also an aggressive degreaser, which can work for cleaning an oiled stone, but it's also very tough on the skin of the hands (as I found out myself), stripping the natural oils from the skin and really drying it up in a hurry. Some aspects of SG I liked - it smelled nice and gave nice feedback on the stone. But the negatives of using it made me decide it wasn't worth it to me, for sharpening purposes. I think its greater value would be for cleaning the stones, especially if they're oiled. That can be done with some rubber gloves or disposable gloves on, for the sake of protecting your skin.
 
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Obsessed with Edges said:
Porous stones used previously with oil can sometimes be cleaned sufficiently at/near the surface, to make use with water less problematic. A really oily stone will make water bead up on the surface, which basically negates the advantages of using water for sharpening. But, with hot water, liquid dish detergent and a stiff brush, the surface of the stone can at least sometimes be cleaned well enough that water or other wet solutions won't bead up. I mention this, because I've tried it myself.

I've also verified that oil will do a much better job actually suspending swarf on the stone, which in turn will make it easier to keep the stone unclogged and cutting aggressively. It occurred to me, at one time, when I was using a porous stone originally meant for oiled use at the sink for sharpening with water, that the swarf I was rinsing from the stone would immediately sink to the bottom of the sink. Point being, the water wasn't capable of actually suspending the steel swarf at all, even temporarily. That's when it clicked in my mind that it wouldn't suspend swarf on the stone either, and swarf would immediately settle deeply into the pores of the stone. By contrast, if the surface of the stone is oiled, you can actually see the oil suspending the swarf so it can easily be wiped away periodically (microfiber towel is great for this).

As for the Simple Green mentioned earlier:
Simple Green is alkaline in pH, enough to be caustic. It'll induce rust-spotting on non-stainless blades. I found that out the hard way, in sharpening a 1095 blade on a natural stone using Simple Green for lubrication. It's also an aggressive degreaser, which can work for cleaning an oiled stone, but it's also very tough on the skin of the hands (as I found out myself), really drying up my skin in a hurry. Some aspects of SG I liked - it smelled nice and gave nice feedback on the stone. But the negatives of using it made me decide it wasn't worth it to me, for sharpening purposes.
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Excellent explanation. Thank you.
 
Here is some Youtube wisdom on the subject. (I watched a couple of vids where this seemed to work very well, but I've never done it myself.)

If your stone is loaded with oil and you want it gone, you can submerge it in brake cleaner. It takes a while, but most of the oil appears to migrate out of the stone. I seem to remember the stone bubbling, maybe the brake cleaner displaces the air and oil. One guy sharpened with water after the process, and the stone and water acted naturally. Hopefully it is still performing months later.

I don't know how much brake cleaner costs, but enough to bleach out a bench stone might be getting close to the price of a new bench stone! It is some nasty stuff, I avoid it.

I tried to find the vids, but I came up empty.
 
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What about cleaning the stones with soap and water after each use, having used honing oil as a lubricant?
 
Ten95Fanboy said:
What about cleaning the stones with soap and water after each use, having used honing oil as a lubricant?
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I think it matters what kind of stone it is. Traditional oilstones like Arkansas stones are very hard and don't soak much of the lubricant. As you use only a couple of drops of honing oil I should be possible.

Coarser stones like Lanksy or Smith's combination stones are quite porous and behave more like a sponge. Therefore you need more oil because few drops will simply be soaked in. This could be more difficult to clean the surface. But warm water, dish soap and a thoroughly scrubbing can remove a lot of the oil.

I used mineral oil on a coarse silicone carbide scythe stone (I gave it an oil bath). Even after cleaning the stone oil dripped out. But as I mentioned before warm to hot water (not boiling hot), and a generous amount of dish soap helped to remove most of the oil. Now the surface feels free from grease and I think I could use the stone with water.
 
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