Why, oh why, won't the blueing stick?

T

Trout Tamer

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Jan 20, 2004
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Have any of y'all experienced this? I am using Casey-Birch Perma-Blue on 1095 carbon steel, following all the directions, and the crazy stuff just won't hold onto the blade. Oh sure, it turns the steel blue; that is, until I wipe it with a rag or any other material, like my fingers :mad: :rolleyes: So, am I doing something wrong? Any suggestions on how to get gun blueing to stick?
 
You can heat the steel a little and it will flow across the surface a bit better.

They also make a paste gun bluing (Birchwood Casey) that hangs on much better.
 
Oops, I knew it was Birchwood Casey :rolleyes: But, misnomers aside, thanks for the info, Greg. I think I'll give the heat a try. If that doesn't produce satisfactory results, then I'll get some of the paste.
 
Try cleaning that blade with acetone, or better yet lacquer thinner. Don't touch the blade again with your bare hands. Apply the stuff with a clean dauber.

Any oil or fingerprints will cause problems. If it still won't work, then what Ray said!! Stainless steel.:eek:
 
Don't expect it to get that deep rich blue of a good handgun. It can actually be bluing and leaving the steel gray-blue. Multiple coats, cleaned with oil-free steel wool in between will help some, especially if the steel is pretty warm, as in boiling water hot.

The quality of the finish beforehand will make a big difference, too. Best results are obtained from a high polish.

Personally, I have used about ten different cold blues and none of them come even close to hot blue colors. Others have some better success, but I don't know how they get it that way.
 
"Maybe your 1095 is stainless steel......."

Well, I wrapped a blade up in a damp towel for a couple of days and when I got it out of the towel, there were rust spots all over it! :eek: If it is stainless, it is very low chromium :D So, yeah, it's definitely carbon.

"Try cleaning that blade with acetone, or better yet lacquer thinner."

I was using some metal-cleaning agent that's used for etching/pre-etching. I don't remember what exactly it is. Maybe that's part of the problem... I'll give the lacquer thinner a try.

"The quality of the finish beforehand will make a big difference, too. Best results are obtained from a high polish."

I didn't know that. The knife in question is actually my first, so the learning curve is pretty steep. :)

"Don't expect it to get that deep rich blue of a good handgun. It can actually be bluing and leaving the steel gray-blue... Multiple coats, cleaned with oil-free steel wool in between will help some, especially if the steel is pretty warm, as in boiling water hot."

I don't expect a nice, rich blue. My problem is that it won't stick at all. I tried cleaning the blade between coats, and all I accomplished was completely wiping off the blueing! :eek: I'll try heating up the steel. My finish skills have greatly improved, too, which ought to help a lot.

"Personally, I have used about ten different cold blues and none of them come even close to hot blue colors."

I have no knowledge whatsoever concerning hot blues... I just went to Wal-Mart, grabbed some Perma-Blue, and went to work. Where can I find hot blues?

I selected gun bluing as my rust-preventive method because I'm completely new to knife making and bluing seemed the most economical and attainable method of rust prevention on carbon steel. I would like to learn how to bake on epoxy-type coating, but that is something else I know zilch about. I think I'll post another thread or do some searching about that in the near future. Right now, I am generally having fun with the learning process :grumpy: :D

Thank you all for your input and, if you have any more suggestions, I'm grateful.
 
In stainless, the key word is LESS. It's not stain proof. It will stain, and corrode if abused, it just has LESS of a tendency than tool steel to do that.

Where did you get this "1095", and when you ground it did a shower of sparks result? Stainless has less of a tendency to spark than tool steel.

One of the first ways I test to see if something is hi carbon stainless is rub some cold blue on it. If it wont take, it's stainless.

But like MIke Fitzgerald said, metal prep is the secret to a good blue job. Rubbing with lacquer thinner is just the start. After that, clean with 409, TSP, or some other heavy duty cleaner in the hottest water from your tap.
Water should sheet across the metal. If it runs in rivulets, it's not clean enough, keep scrubbing.
Don't ever touch the area to be blued again with anything dirty, including bare hands, if cold blue still won't darken the metal, go back to where you got it and get your money back.

One last thought, test it with a magnet just in case. It won't be magnetic if it's 300 series, and very little magnetic signature if it's 410-416 series. Neither one is fit for blade steel, only fittings.!!:eek:
 
Something's definitely odd here. If the steel's clean, cold blue will produce a definite color change on plain carbon steel, regardless of finish. It may not come out like a gun finish, but you should notice it. Do you mind telling us how you know your steel is 1095, such as how you sourced it, or was it found steel?

If possible, obtain a copy of the Brownell's catalog. They are a major gunsmith supply house and offer a wealth of both tools and coloring chemicals. Hot bluing techniques need some study before you actually pursue it. I believe they have tips on their online FAQ's.

You can also simply etch your blade to a dull gray oxide finish to obtain some measure of rust inhibition. PCB Etchant can be purchased at Radio Shack, diluted with 1 to 5 parts DISTILLED water, and then the blade can be immersed for a minute or so, cleaning with oil free steel wool, fine scotchbrite, or fine grit wet-or-dry paper in between dunks. When the desired depth of etch is obtained, neutralize the acid with a good scrub of baking soda, ammonia, or other household base. The same effect may be obtained to a lesser degree using vinegar instead of the ferric chloride etchant.

Hope this helps, some. Good luck.
 
"If the steel's clean, cold blue will produce a definite color change on plain carbon steel, regardless of finish."

The blue does produce a color change. In fact, the more layers I apply, the darker the metal becomes. The problem I am encountering is with keeping the blue on the blade after applied. If I wipe with a wet rag, the finish washes off.

"Do you mind telling us how you know your steel is 1095, such as how you sourced it, or was it found steel?"

Nope, I don't mind at all. I purchased it from Scheffield Knifemaker's Supply; they are located somewhere in Florida. Over on Knifeforums, Jerry Hossom posted a knife tutorial link, then recommended people use 1084 from Scheffield's. When I ordered, they were out of 1084, so I went with the 1095... at least, that's what they say it is. According to Hossom, they are a reliable source.

"Hope this helps, some. Good luck."

Yes, it does, indeed. Thanks you on both accounts. I will post further results as I am able to continue working on the knife... hopefully, I will completely finish the blade and complete most of the handle over the weekend.

"In stainless, the key word is LESS. It's not stain proof. It will stain, and corrode if abused, it just has LESS of a tendency than tool steel to do that."

True. I am comparing this current steel to my BM Griptillian in D2, a SOG folder with 440A, and a Cold Steel SRK. The steel I am using stained much, much more easily than either the 440A or the D2. In fact, it stained as quickly, or nearly so, as my SRK will when left in moisture.

"Where did you get this "1095", and when you ground it did a shower of sparks result? Stainless has less of a tendency to spark than tool steel."

As stated above, the steel came from Scheffield's. I ground the blade down a couple of months ago and much of the blade shaping was done with a file. However, when using a Dremel, it will spark all over the place. And, come to think of it, the rest of the bar stock sparks easily when being ground (I bought enough for several knives to be made... my brother, step dad, and several friends have made at least one, if not two, knives from this material).

Thanks for the interest and replies. I am learning even without taking steel and tools in hand! :D
 
If you want a good blue job from cold blue, then you have to get the good stuff, either Van Gordons, or Novum.

Go to you local hardware store and get about 2' of 1 1/2-2" diameter PVC, get an end cap, or if possible, an end cap with flange, that will stand, if not you just have to brace it in an upright position. Glue them together with PVC cement, available at the same place.
Fill the pipe with enough blueing to submerge the blade in question, then heat the blade in the oven at about 225-250 for 15-20 minutes or so. Remove the knife and submerge in the blueing "tank" for about 5 minutes, take it out and card the surface with steel wool or scotchbrite, and resubmerge. Do that until you get what you want. It shouldn't take more than three dips. Neutralize as described above. Neither Novum, or Van Gordons have that rotten smell that most cold blues have either.
I did a complete model 69 winchester .22 rifle this way a few years ago, and it still looks good.
http://www.novumsolutions.com/

I don't have a URL, for Van Gordons, and don't think they have one. They are in Wisconsin, if you're interested, let me know and I'll post a phone number.

Of course, you could do this a lot easier with a can of spray paint.;)
 
I have been buying stuff from Sheffield for over 20 years, and totally believe they are very competent. Though they aren't immune from making a mistake, I would tend to believe they gave you 1095. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't "a friend at work gave me this and said...." It wouldn't have been the first time, so I'm sure you understand.

I use a lot of Dichropam from Brownells. It is supposed to be a topshelf cold blue. I have encountered the same problem you have. Put a coat on, let it sit a few minutes, then steel wool off. 99% comes back off and there is a light coloring to the steel. Do this 8-10 times, heating the steel with boiling hot water first, and it slowly takes on a deeper tint, but never the heavy blue color I'd prefer. Only once did I really get a georgeous deep blue, and that was on 1018 that hadn't been heat treated.

I keeep meaning to get some of the Van's Mike is speaking of, as he has told me before it's the best stuff around for cold blue. Personally, I would recommend that if you want it really blued, you get some quality hot bluing from Brownells, a hot plate and dedicated pan, and do it that way.
 
Mike Hull:
Thank you for the directions on cold bluing :) I plan on going to the hardware store tomorrow or Monday and getting the supplies you listed; hopefully, this'll do the trick.
"Of course, you could do this a lot easier with a can of spray paint."
Hey, now why didn't I think of that?! I could have a wide assortment of colors, too! No anodizing of aluminum and titanium, no staining of wood, no ordering different colors of Micarta or G-10... and, some one-stop-shopping at Wal-Mart :D

fitzo:
"I have been buying stuff from Sheffield... and totally believe they are very competent... I just wanted to make sure it wasn't "a friend at work gave me this and said...." It wouldn't have been the first time, so I'm sure you understand."

I understand and I thank you for your concern. The more deeply involved in the knife community I become, the more respect I gain for the people therein. Thanks for taking the time to make sure things are kosher :)

Dan Gray:
Now, THAT sounds like some serious stuff!

Again, thank you to all who have replied and shared their knowledge and experience with me.
 
being CAS Registry Number (1310-73-2) it's the same as the Brownells bluing in that type of Bluing (low temp)
Note!
you have to watch out for a lot of stuff we use,
if something is going on to your skin ( transdermal )and into your lungs you need to know what it will do to you and why? (@@Cancer)
 
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