Why plastic washers?

[cbrstar]

I recently bought a used Recon 1 XL, and like all my knives wanted to give it some TLC.
I was kinda surprised though to see a paper thin plastic washer hiding under the bronze bushing. At first I thought that the plastic washer was on the wrong side. But after watching some youtube vids I see that it does go on the blade side.

What's the purpose of this washer? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of having phosphor bronze bushings in the first place?

 

[cbrstar]

Is this one of those situations where it's already been asked 100x or no one actually knows?

 

[Dadpool]

It's new to me.

I've only ever seen plastic washers used on their own or as spacers between bronze washes and the frame/scales.

I recently disassembled my Espada and I totally put it back together with the bronze washers adjacent to the blade, so if there's a good reason that's incorrect I'd love to know.

 

[SOLEIL]

Why not plastic? They work just fine and have for decades.

 

[Dadpool]

Why not plastic? They work just fine and have for decades.

That's not what the OP is asking. Plastic washers can be fine.

But why combine them with bronze and then put the plastic ones next to the blade, not the bronze?

 

[kreole]

Phosphor bronze have to break in to get to as smooth as they can be, while plastic/nylon ones are just as smooth from the start (no break in period). If you're a manufacturer, that's definitely desirable. They're next to the blade because the blade rotates against them.

I have replaced all of mine with phosphor bronze washers of thickness equal to the thickness of the two washers combined. I don't mind waiting for it to break in, and then I don't have to worry about the plastic getting pinched during assembly.

 

[AF]

I'm not sure why they use combo washers. Nylon against the blade is for smoothness. I've replaced some combos with a single thicker bronze washer. Then I stopped doing that because I ran out of bronze washers. Also the combo set up doesn't concern me anymore. If if becomes a problem I'll address it rather than anticipating a future problem that may never arise.
I had my Bush Ranger apart recently and that knife uses a single thicker nylon washer on each side.

 

[Dadpool]

It sounds like there's no reason to be concerned about having put them on "backwards" in my Espada, then. That's good to know!

 

[insta9ves]

I really(x10) dislike the additional layer of paper thin teflon washers Cold Steel added to their folders. Most of the time they just get torn out on me because i tend to tighten my pivot a bit more, this cause serious tolerance issue, i.e. blade ricasso area rubbing against the handle. 100% of the time i'll remove the teflon layer, works for most models but it's a hit and miss. For example, the American Lawman is notorious for having issue with side to side blade play closed when the teflon is removed, yet hard to open due to the very thin hand.

Recently i've discovered that i can buy replacement washer for cheap thanks to the good folks on this forums, and i've been replacing the dual layer bronze+teflon washers with solid bronze version. Most of cold steel folders use 0.006" thick bronze with 0.004" thick teflon layer, so you can just replace them with either a 0.01Tx0.25IDx0.5OD(fits ultimate hunter) or 0.01Tx0.25IDx0.625OD(fits American Lawman or AD10). I just replaced my new AD10 with a new wider solid bronze washer. The action is as smooth if not much smoother than the stock washers.

Cold Steel should really consider switching to solid bronze washer to avoid teflon tearout and tolerance issue. I'd say there's really no disadvantage with a solid bronze washer.

 

[cbrstar]

Do they use teflon to save the effort of oiling the pivot?

 

[insta9ves]

Do they use teflon to save the effort of oiling the pivot?

Doubt so, most CS comes very oiled.. Bronze doesn’t need much oiling also

 

[AF]

Most of the time they just get torn out on me because i tend to tighten my pivot a bit more...

How tight are we talking? I always tighten a pivot to the point where there's no side to side play and I measure the play with the blade open and the lock disengaged so that the lock isn't stabilizing the blade. I often need to use Loctite to maintain.

 

[insta9ves]

How tight are we talking? I always tighten a pivot to the point where there's no side to side play and I measure the play with the blade open and the lock disengaged so that the lock isn't stabilizing the blade. I often need to use Loctite to maintain.

I often tighten all the way through until I can’t turn my wiha driver with 2 finger, then i blue locktite it. It’s tight, almost like a new inkosi tight, but not too tight. At that level the blade wont drop shut, and will only drop when i hold the lock and flick it.

 

[Cold Steel Knives]

I recently bought a used Recon 1 XL, and like all my knives wanted to give it some TLC.
I was kinda surprised though to see a paper thin plastic washer hiding under the bronze bushing. At first I thought that the plastic washer was on the wrong side. But after watching some youtube vids I see that it does go on the blade side.

What's the purpose of this washer? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of having phosphor bronze bushings in the first place?

It is Teflon. The purpose of it is because 97% of the world who buys knives don't maintain them like the true aficionados found here. The VAST majority of people don't even know how to take the clip off or what a Torx bit is (not kidding), let alone how to oil or maintain a knife. Phosphor Bronze washers wear out very easily if not oiled and they get ruined fast, usually to the effect of not being able to hardly operate the knife. The Teflon washers make it so that the PB washers don't receive as much wear, and we don't have to replace, return or service thousands of knives every day from the rest of the world that isn't "into knives" or know what they're doing. It's just that way it has to be unfortunately. Bearings get full of dirt and make the action gritty which leads to complaints and service increase. PB only leads to hard to open cases and increased servicing and subsequently longer wait times. This is the best option for everyone at a large consumer scale.

 

[Cold Steel Knives]

Here's an article I found that explains the materials and why they're used.

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/pocket-knife-bearings-compared.htm

 

[Dadpool]

The Teflon washers make it so that the PB washers don't receive as much wear, and we don't have to replace, return or service thousands of knives every day from the rest of the world that isn't "into knives" or know what they're doing.

Thanks for responding, and for breaking things down so clearly. Makes sense to me.

 

[insta9ves]

It is Teflon. The purpose of it is because 97% of the world who buys knives don't maintain them like the true aficionados found here. The VAST majority of people don't even know how to take the clip off or what a Torx bit is (not kidding), let alone how to oil or maintain a knife. Phosphor Bronze washers wear out very easily if not oiled and they get ruined fast, usually to the effect of not being able to hardly operate the knife. The Teflon washers make it so that the PB washers don't receive as much wear, and we don't have to replace, return or service thousands of knives every day from the rest of the world that isn't "into knives" or know what they're doing. It's just that way it has to be unfortunately. Bearings get full of dirt and make the action gritty which leads to complaints and service increase. PB only leads to hard to open cases and increased servicing and subsequently longer wait times. This is the best option for everyone at a large consumer scale.

That’s good info, thanks for sharing. I expected the warranty return for teflon to be higher since it tears out much easier than bronze, but i guess you guys have the most relevant data. I wonder when you said bronze washers are easier to get ruined, is it from the contact with blade or with the g-10 handle? I thought the bronze washer has low friction with the blade but the g10 can wear it up more easily due to the glass fibers.

 

[colin.p]

I really(x10) dislike the additional layer of paper thin teflon washers Cold Steel added to their folders. Most of the time they just get torn out on me because i tend to tighten my pivot a bit more, this cause serious tolerance issue, i.e. blade ricasso area rubbing against the handle. 100% of the time i'll remove the teflon layer, works for most models but it's a hit and miss. For example, the American Lawman is notorious for having issue with side to side blade play closed when the teflon is removed, yet hard to open due to the very thin hand.

Recently i've discovered that i can buy replacement washer for cheap thanks to the good folks on this forums, and i've been replacing the dual layer bronze+teflon washers with solid bronze version. Most of cold steel folders use 0.006" thick bronze with 0.004" thick teflon layer, so you can just replace them with either a 0.01Tx0.25IDx0.5OD(fits ultimate hunter) or 0.01Tx0.25IDx0.625OD(fits American Lawman or AD10). I just replaced my new AD10 with a new wider solid bronze washer. The action is as smooth if not much smoother than the stock washers.

Cold Steel should really consider switching to solid bronze washer to avoid teflon tearout and tolerance issue. I'd say there's really no disadvantage with a solid bronze washer.

Thanks for that info. I have copied it to a document and will have that at the ready when/if I ever need to change out the washers in my AL.

 

[jux t]

I really(x10) dislike the additional layer of paper thin teflon washers Cold Steel added to their folders. Most of the time they just get torn out on me because i tend to tighten my pivot a bit more, this cause serious tolerance issue, i.e. blade ricasso area rubbing against the handle. 100% of the time i'll remove the teflon layer, works for most models but it's a hit and miss. For example, the American Lawman is notorious for having issue with side to side blade play closed when the teflon is removed, yet hard to open due to the very thin hand.

Recently i've discovered that i can buy replacement washer for cheap thanks to the good folks on this forums, and i've been replacing the dual layer bronze+teflon washers with solid bronze version. Most of cold steel folders use 0.006" thick bronze with 0.004" thick teflon layer, so you can just replace them with either a 0.01Tx0.25IDx0.5OD(fits ultimate hunter) or 0.01Tx0.25IDx0.625OD(fits American Lawman or AD10). I just replaced my new AD10 with a new wider solid bronze washer. The action is as smooth if not much smoother than the stock washers.

Cold Steel should really consider switching to solid bronze washer to avoid teflon tearout and tolerance issue. I'd say there's really no disadvantage with a solid bronze washer.

Thanks for the info! Any idea what size would fit the recon 1, as a replacement?

 

[insta9ves]

Thanks for the info! Any idea what size would fit the recon 1, as a replacement?

0.01Tx0.25IDx0.625OD should probably work. This is what I used for my lawman and AD10. Recon 1 should have wide enough tang to take wider washers. The smaller 0.5OD also works.