Why San Mai???

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Cushing H.

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Maybe a weird question - but why use a San Mai construction????

I have a couple japanese blades that have a San Mai construction with a "damascus" laminated outer layer (inner being either R2 or Hitachi White) .... and in these blades I get that you get the advantage of the physical properties of the inner steel, and the appearance of the outer steel.

BUT ... on a couple other blades I have .... they are San Mai with an inner layer of Hitachi White, and the outer layer is NOT damascus .... just some other softer steel. You can barely see the transition between the two ... so I doubt this construction is for appearance......

So ... why San Mai (non-"damascus")??? Is there a cost saving somehow? Is there a gain in terms of physical properties of the overall blade???
 
There are many advantages-

More efficient for a maker to produce a high quality blade, easier to straighten, depending on the core easier to heat treat... and to process overall and grind a soft laminate material, easier to finish the blade

Easier for the customer to thin the blade.... this is common on kitchen knives

The best of both worlds when you have a high carbon cutting core and a stainless cladding

easier to sharpen assuming the core is high carbon

as far as I know and understand, Japanese don’t care about seeing the transition lines and etching and wild transition between the two materials... that’s a western thing.
 
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HSC /// said:
and to process overall and grind a soft laminate material, easier to finish the blade
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Hmmm. Certainly I do spend a lot of time on the grind taking away all that material from just behind the edge down to the spine.....
 
Cushing H. said:
I doubt this construction is for appearance......
So ... why San Mai (non-"damascus")??? Is there a cost saving somehow? Is there a gain in terms of physical properties of the overall blade???
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TOUGHNESS ...............allows you to use crazy hard and crazy brittle steel where it does not belong :D
 
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Done well it looks awesome.

What other reason does one need?
 
I just made two, grinding after HT. Not only was it like having built in scribe lines, but the core throws up sparks so you know exactly when you are into it. The stainless cladding takes a nice polish with little effort.
 
Richard338 said:
I just made two, grinding after HT. Not only was it like having built in scribe lines, but the core throws up sparks so you know exactly when you are into it. The stainless cladding takes a nice polish with little effort.
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Thumbs up
 
DevinT said:
Greater toughness
Save money on expensive core steel
Easier to grind/polish/thin
Adds value to knife
Easier to straighten

Hoss
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Hoss ... I bow to you. Question: but the mfg process is more expensive. Do you save that much? (In terms of reduced amount of core steel, and reduced grinding cost ? Or is the focus on performance versus a mono steel ?
 
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I’ll give you my opinion and it took me a while to come to this realization

there’s a saying that something can be expensive but not costly

Laminated steel is indeed expensive but it is not costly to work with ...it has high workability and your personal time investment is reduced.

So yes, you can indeed save a lot of time working with laminated steel to make a knife.

I can rough grind a forged out kitchen blade in half an hour, finish it in another half an hour and hand sand it in 20 minutes. I don’t believe there’s anything else that comes even close.

also as far as I know, the laminated steel in Japan is made in production facilities with Rolling Mill‘s and done very efficiently.

Harbeer
 
Cushing H. said:
Hoss ... I bow. Question: but the mfg process is more expensive. Do you save that much? (In terms of reduced amount of core steel, and reduced grinding cost ? Or is the focus on performance versus a mono steel ?
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I do charge more for a san-mai blade, 50% more than a simple mono steel blade. I use a wide range of different steels for the core, some are quite expensive. High wear resistant PM grades are very expensive compared to simple carbon steels.

With the high wear grades, the biggest savings are time and abrasives during finishing.

Rent a table at a knife show, make two knives that are the same but one is mono steel and the other is san-mai, then see which one sells first. Do the same thing again except use san-mai for one and the other in damascus. Of course they have to be visually appealing and priced reasonably.

People buy knives on emotion not reason. The more you put into a knife, the greater the value.

Make a knife with some really cool san-mai and see if you don’t put it on the night stand and check on it in the middle of the night.

Hoss
 
How hard can the cladding be made while retaining these benefits? I have been a little disappointed with how easy it is to scratch the stainless sides of a san-mai gyuto; is that to be expected generally or is it a choice of materials?
 
Mr.Wizard said:
How hard can the cladding be made while retaining these benefits? I have been a little disappointed with how easy it is to scratch the stainless sides of a san-mai gyuto; is that to be expected generally or is it a choice of materials?
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It is a choice of materals ....I try to find way to get K390core with N690 for sides san mai to make knife for my son .Sides would be hard .But there is advantage of soft sides .....
 
DevinT said:
I do charge more for a san-mai blade ...Make a knife with some really cool san-mai and see if you don’t put it on the night stand and check on it in the middle of the night.
Hoss
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Hoss ... your commentary had me in stitches ... thank you. I don’t sell ... so it all cost to me. Still, if (when?) I go above ~62 rockwell it would be interesting to try the San mai fir the softer cladding. Unfortunately I don’t forge, and so far don’t see anything but damascus clad stock for sale...

I totally get your comment about damascus. I was showing my wife a blade ihad just finished, and explaining that the steel was the same as the inner core of another knife (a damascus clad vg10 core) ... and she goes “ok ... but Cant you get the surface to look nice like this other one?” Grrrr.

But that is just a funny aside- I love damascus, but now understand what non-damascus San mai “buys” for the maker and user. Thanks all.
 
It is also a historical thing. The same construction was used in old Scandinavian blades.
In old times high carbon steel was made by hand and very expensive. San mai is a way to be economical with high carbon steel
 
Cushing H. said:
Maybe a weird question - but why use a San Mai construction????

I have a couple japanese blades that have a San Mai construction with a "damascus" laminated outer layer (inner being either R2 or Hitachi White) .... and in these blades I get that you get the advantage of the physical properties of the inner steel, and the appearance of the outer steel.

BUT ... on a couple other blades I have .... they are San Mai with an inner layer of Hitachi White, and the outer layer is NOT damascus .... just some other softer steel. You can barely see the transition between the two ... so I doubt this construction is for appearance......

So ... why San Mai (non-"damascus")??? Is there a cost saving somehow? Is there a gain in terms of physical properties of the overall blade???
Click to expand...


Well my friend , now when it is clear why San Mai ........tell us WHY you bye couple japanese blades that have a San Mai construction with a "damascus" laminated outer layer :) I will bet on LOOK :D
 
Natlek said:
Well my friend , now when it is clear why San Mai ........tell us WHY you bye couple japanese blades that have a San Mai construction with a "damascus" laminated outer layer :) I will bet on LOOK :D
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Oh, definitely the ones with damascus outer cladding I bought for looks! (Well, one of them had an R2 inner layer at 64 rockwell, and i was curious about that steel...)
 
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