Why the hate for 4116?

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dogstar

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4116 always gets brought up as one of the worst steels. I don't get it. It's used in kitchen knives, presumably because of rust resistance and ease of resharpening, which are both good in my book. I prefer knives that can be easily sharpened with basic tools that I carry in the field. My 4116 knives are among my sharpest. I also like their price point.

When I hear people dissing 4116, I wonder if they own any knives in this steel. If so, how did the knife fail them? I don't hear stories of them breaking, chipping, or rolling.

Cedric and Ada Gear and Outdoors tested a Cold Steel pocket bushman by rope cutting and found it to be the equal of Bos 420HC, better than 5160, AUS8, 440c, 8Cr13Mov. Our own O old4570 did some rope cutting of his own and found 4116 to be the equal of Mora's 12C27. So, what gives? Does 4116 actually deserve the hate it gets?
 
I don’t believe it deserves all the hate. Depends on the application and I think often times the price point. A lot of people get turned off because 4116 often comes on inexpensive knives so it seems implied to some that it’s no good. In the kitchen though it has been great for me. Been over a year with my Kitchen Classics with minimal maintenance and still performing well. Well enough I thought I’d try a non-kitchen knife in 4116, Cold Steel Roach Belly. I value easy maintenance as well, and it’s a nice design. We’ll see how well it performs in a different role but so far so good!
 
Can someone tell me if I am wrong, this is the new designation for the 1.4116 Krupp?

Only like it on Vic knives, but I would try one of the new CS at the right price. But, I prefer something else for choppers and aw.
 
Hashishiin said:
Can someone tell me if I am wrong, this is the new designation for the 1.4116 Krupp?

Only like it on Vic knives, but I would try one of the new CS at the right price. But, I prefer something else for choppers and aw.
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I did a little reading. It seems if the knife says 4116 German or Krupp, that is different from 1.4116, which is a general designation that can be made anywhere. I only have experience with 4116 Krupp.
 
Hashishiin said:
Can someone tell me if I am wrong, this is the new designation for the 1.4116 Krupp?

Only like it on Vic knives, but I would try one of the new CS at the right price. But, I prefer something else for choppers and aw.
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It's pretty much the same thing. It's also known as X50CrMov15, 420mov, 5cr15mov depending on who makes it, amongst others.

There is nothing wrong with it. Pretty basic steel that has pretty good corrosion resistance as it's main selling point. Common in the famous Solingen kitchen knives.

People like to hate on basic steels.
 
Great working-knife steel, where ease of sharpening is valued more than edge retention, where some abuse might occur. I really like it. It gets a nice crisp, sharp edge with minimal effort and holds it long enough for most uses.

Just yesterday I used the little brother of it (4110) to fillet about 15 fish, going through bones and all and could still have used it for 15 more without touching up. If I felt it needed a touch up, a few swipes on a honing steel would bring it right up again. The fish cleaning table at the club is a rough concrete one and now and then if I'm not paying attention I'll accidentally contact it with the knife, but as has been mentioned, the edge is easy to bring back if that happens, so what's not to like?

People get so bent out of shape with basic steels when it's the basic steels that actually do the most work, most of the time.
 
Good and bad are largely relative. It's also worth remembering that chasing better steel is more of a factor in some kinds of applications than others, such as modern EDC folders versus kitchen knives or the blade you get on an average multi-tool.

5Cr15 was earlier mentioned in comparison to the steel here and the numbering in that series might be helpful. This is a steel that is still used in some multi-tool blades but at least in primary EDC knives, 5Cr15 is widely considered hot garbage in 2022. To be fair, 5Cr15 is a step up from 3Cr13 but also a step down from 7Cr17. The former is widely used in Walmart's Ozark Trail series, which might cost between $5 and $10. It is pretty bad but better than nothing. Meanwhile, 7Cr17Mov is still used in a few $20ish knives. It used to be more popular in survival-type knives due to its decent corrosion resistance but has largely fallen out of favor. The proliferation of 8Cr13Mov is a big part of that. While the ultimate winner in edge retention between 7Cr17 and 8Cr13 will come down to individual heat treatment, 8Cr has the edge on paper and dominated the budget scene more than a decade ago. Now you can find tons of knives in 8Cr13Mov in the neighborhood of $20.

Today, 8Cr13Mov is considered by some to be the bare minimum for edge retention in a budget knife. Others, including myself, see it as horribly substandard, hard to justify in a knife costing more than $25, and generally worth saving up the price of a few cups of coffee to get into something better. With steels like 9Cr18Mov, 440C, Acuto 440, AR-RPM9, Chinese D2, and even 14C28N showing up in more competitively priced knives; the very real step down in performance from those steels to 8Cr13Mov just doesn't have to be endured. Given the additional step down in performance from 8Cr13 to 5Cr15, the latter might as well be lost in the weeds at the bottom of a ravine.
 
Chronovore said:
Good and bad are largely relative. It's also worth remembering that chasing better steel is more of a factor in some kinds of applications than others, such as modern EDC folders versus kitchen knives or the blade you get on an average multi-tool.

5Cr15 was earlier mentioned in comparison to the steel here and the numbering in that series might be helpful. This is a steel that is still used in some multi-tool blades but at least in primary EDC knives, 5Cr15 is widely considered hot garbage in 2022. To be fair, 5Cr15 is a step up from 3Cr13 but also a step down from 7Cr17. The former is widely used in Walmart's Ozark Trail series, which might cost between $5 and $10. It is pretty bad but better than nothing. Meanwhile, 7Cr17Mov is still used in a few $20ish knives. It used to be more popular in survival-type knives due to its decent corrosion resistance but has largely fallen out of favor. The proliferation of 8Cr13Mov is a big part of that. While the ultimate winner in edge retention between 7Cr17 and 8Cr13 will come down to individual heat treatment, 8Cr has the edge on paper and dominated the budget scene more than a decade ago. Now you can find tons of knives in 8Cr13Mov in the neighborhood of $20.

Today, 8Cr13Mov is considered by some to be the bare minimum for edge retention in a budget knife. Others, including myself, see it as horribly substandard, hard to justify in a knife costing more than $25, and generally worth saving up the price of a few cups of coffee to get into something better. With steels like 9Cr18Mov, 440C, Acuto 440, AR-RPM9, Chinese D2, and even 14C28N showing up in more competitively priced knives; the very real step down in performance from those steels to 8Cr13Mov just doesn't have to be endured. Given the additional step down in performance from 8Cr13 to 5Cr15, the latter might as well be lost in the weeds at the bottom of a ravine.
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I just use the knife. I guess I don't know enough metallurgy to dislike it.
 
the only thing about cheap steel that makes me grin is when a company offers a knife with cheap steel and characterizes it as "Krupp Steel", or "Japanese Honshu Steel" or such. Hype with no bones. They sell a $20 kitchen knife for $300 and are a scam.
 
It's a very good steel, for kitchen use. I wouldn't choose it for an outdoor knife. However, Cold Steel had an entry level bushcrafting / outdoor range of knives in this steel. Go figure... I was very enthused by these knives and I ended up buying them all.
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In the mean time I bought better suited outdoor tools but to this day I still use those knives in the kitchen or at the table (for people who like to saw consistently into their plate, for example, easy to fix the edge...). To sum up, I wouldn't shy away from a well done knife because of this steel.
 
Can’t hate people etc. why not inanimate objects? Kitchen knife steel of many types including this one are only suitable for the commoner’s kitchen
 
I love to conflate commoner's kitchen craft with high end kitchen art.... So where does this leave us ? I love to cook on a fireplace, a woodstove or a high-end gas stove. It's all fine, nice and dandy. And the knives' steel has been the least of my worries. It it's steel, it's good.
 
I love 4116, I have several knives in that steel from different manufacturers. It is a fine grain stainless and really takes a screaming sharp edge easily, and works great for edc use and kitchen use. Some people get hung up on hardness numbers and edge retention which is why they aren’t interested, but in my experience they all get dull with use and I would rather have something I can restore to razor sharp in just a couple of minutes as opposed to grinding away with a guided sharpening system for 45 minutes. 56-57 HRC is about in the range of Victorinox knives and that is good enough to me.
 
I think everyone is not mad at German chef knives, but rather all the uproar from Cold Steel passing off the 4116 to be as good as the A2 or O1 they had been promising.

I do have a Kudu in 5cr... but honestly, it would be cooler if it was a tool steel. The Kudu is basically like a stiletto in practice to me, as in, bought it because it was 15 dollars, wouldn't hesitate to cut some stuff and if the stuff is analogous to SAK steel, it really is a joy to sharpen. I use it in my kitchen, have some Vics and BD1N Spyderco. However, would you guys not consider this a slight wrong move on CS part, selling it as a hardcore chopper steel?

Mannlicher said:
the only thing about cheap steel that makes me grin is when a company offers a knife with cheap steel and characterizes it as "Krupp Steel", or "Japanese Honshu Steel" or such. Hype with no bones. They sell a $20 kitchen knife for $300 and are a scam.
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Honshu steel, that's such a big region for knifemaking. If ever that is the sole descriptor, I will know to run. Right on there.
 
Hashishiin said:
I do have a Kudu in 5cr... but honestly, it would be cooler if it was a tool steel. The Kudu is basically like a stiletto in practice to me, as in, bought it because it was 15 dollars, wouldn't hesitate to cut some stuff and if the stuff is analogous to SAK steel, it really is a joy to sharpen. I use it in my kitchen, have some Vics and BD1N Spyderco. However, would you guys not consider this a slight wrong move on CS part, selling it as a hardcore chopper steel?
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I think the Kudu makes a great travel kitchen knife.

What is the chopper in 4116? The biggest I know of is the old Leatherneck SF, and that is a 7" blade. I have not heard of any issues with 4116 in general, what have you heard/experienced?
 
dogstar said:
I think the Kudu makes a great travel kitchen knife.

What is the chopper in 4116? The biggest I know of is the old Leatherneck SF, and that is a 7" blade. I have not heard of any issues with 4116 in general, what have you heard/experienced?
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I got mixed up here, they are using 4034, not 4116 for these new changes... these numbers are getting to me!
 
Who's hating on it ? Maybe I'm not I'm the loop, I never had a problem with it
Nor do I hate or have a problem with 8cr13
Will these steels cut down tanks or spice crawlers? Probably not but then again..
 
dogstar said:
It gets brought up a couple of times here: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/which-do-you-think-is-the-worst-steel-ever.1902271/
In general, people will say things like, I'd buy the knife, but wish it was better steel than 4116.
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Eh, nitpicking over steel isn't really something I'm interested in anymore
Pick up a knife and use it, unless the steel is most abhorrent grade: flea Market garbage
Just think less, use more
That's my 2 cents anyway
And probably an unpopular opinion
Always depends on the heat treatment and who makes it.
If esee decided to make a knife in that steel I'd for sure buy it
Because irregardless of steel they put out good products
 
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