Why the ti liner-lock?

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timberweasel

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I dig Emerson knives, but I gotta wonder... what's the advantage of titanium lock liners over ones made of milled steel? I don't see any. Thoughts?

Personally, I'd rather pay a few dollars less for steel liner-lock or a few dollars more for titanium frame-lock...
 
Weight and rust most likely.
I'd like to see more with stainless lock inserts personally for more consistent engagement.

The weight difference (especially when milled) and rust resistance properties would be negligible at best, IMO.*

The only advantage I see is perhaps galling, which manifests as the unpopular outcome of a lock 'stick'... which kinda supports lock function... whaaat? :rolleyes::D

*you don't need a steel insert on a steel liner lock
 
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Titanium has great properties as a spring (lock), and corrosion + weight advantages over SS as well. I MUCH prefer the older pre-SS non-lockside Emersons.

Hmm.. I hadn't thought of spring tension. Does titanium hold up better than steel as a liner-lock over time?
 
Hmm.. I hadn't thought of spring tension. Does titanium hold up better than steel as a liner-lock over time?
That is a debatable point. Titanium is a better "spring" in terms of memory, but will abrade faster than steel. I personally prefer the lockup be between differing materials, and properly treated titanium combined with good lockface/bladetang design will last a very long time under realistic usage (ie, batton with a fixed blade).
 
I personally prefer the lockup be between differing materials, and properly treated titanium combined with good lockface/bladetang design will last a very long time under realistic usage (ie, batton with a fixed blade).
X-HD serie with Ti-liner and hardened steel shoe for example
 
I would also imagine that waving your knife open all the time would put even more stress on the lock and accelerate wear compared to non-waved folders. I could see the Emerson shop potentially selling more replacement inserts than other manufacturers.

X-HD serie with Ti-liner and hardened steel shoe for example

Thanks, Turbo! I didn't know about the HD series... now that's what I'm talking about! I hope the line expands... :thumbsup:
 
^ Outstanding! Very nice design, IMO. :cool::thumbsup:

And carbon fiber? Are the scales after-market? I'm also curious about the price difference and availability, if you don't mind me asking...
 
I am learning a lot today. :)

Many thanks, Turbo!

*I would like to see a US made Emerson lock-back though
 
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Back on topic...

Supposing they could keep the weight and price more or less the same, if EKI started using steel for their locking liners, would you guys still be interested in buying?
 
Emerson's original customs that were used by the SEALS (which were a big part in making him famous) were dual Ti linerlocks. When the designs made the move to the production models he tried to keep the same basic construction components. The Ti was used initially on both liners because of the chance of encountering salt water which will rust a lot of stainless steels, especially in those days. I assume the switch to the current Ti/steel liner setup was to decrease cost without much decrease in performance. The knives were, and still are, made with the thought of resistance to the elements in mind. That's why Emerson knives use nylatron washers instead of metallic ones. Titanium will flex and not break as easily as steel and still return to true without much effort. The Ti also galls with the steel tang at the lock interface making the signature "pop" when releasing an Emerson lock. This, in theory, makes the lockup more solid even if it is to a small degree.

I love Emerson knives for exactly what they are and exactly what they are made of. I don't ever see Ernie making the switch to all steel liners, just like he wont really deviate from using 154CM as the main blade steel. Emersons are purposely made the way they are and have a lot of thought put into the reasons why. They are very basic and in some ways crude, but that is the charm of them to a lot of people. To answer your above questions, I would not buy a stainless liner lock Emerson or a lockback one.
 
Emerson's original customs that were used by the SEALS (which were a big part in making him famous) were dual Ti linerlocks. When the designs made the move to the production models he tried to keep the same basic construction components. The Ti was used initially on both liners because of the chance of encountering salt water which will rust a lot of stainless steels, especially in those days. I assume the switch to the current Ti/steel liner setup was to decrease cost without much decrease in performance. The knives were, and still are, made with the thought of resistance to the elements in mind. That's why Emerson knives use nylatron washers instead of metallic ones. Titanium will flex and not break as easily as steel and still return to true without much effort. The Ti also galls with the steel tang at the lock interface making the signature "pop" when releasing an Emerson lock. This, in theory, makes the lockup more solid even if it is to a small degree.

I love Emerson knives for exactly what they are and exactly what they are made of. I don't ever see Ernie making the switch to all steel liners, just like he wont really deviate from using 154CM as the main blade steel. Emersons are purposely made the way they are and have a lot of thought put into the reasons why. They are very basic and in some ways crude, but that is the charm of them to a lot of people. To answer your above questions, I would not buy a stainless liner lock Emerson or a lockback one.

Yessir, I'm soakin' up what you're spillin'. Two recipes folks don't want to mess with: Coca-Cola Classic and Emerson Knives. I get it. I respect it. And to a degree, I actually agree with it.

I completely agree with Officer's Match (who posted above) that he'd rather EKI go back to double titanium liners. Me too. But since the original spec has already been altered (and, might I add, without consumers asking for it,) it kind of begs the question; do ti liners offer much of an advantage over steel, anymore? Maybe it does to the lock (and maybe this *is* why they stuck with titanium); especially when partnered with the wave feature (ie. stress and shock absorption properties.) I'm looking into it at my own leisurely pace, and I've already read some interesting articles regarding shock absorption as it pertains to titanium bike frames. Totally different application, but interesting nonetheless.

I'm also interested in the XHD series that Turbo4x4 has kindly brought to my attention. It is certainly a deviation from the ol' classic recipe, but I'd buy one. And, yeah, maybe the back-lock idea was a dumb one, but I'd bet they'd move a few units in, say, a licensing deal with a company like Cold Steel. Anyway, I digress.

What I'm not here to do is tell Mr.Emerson how to run his business, or what EKI fans should appreciate or like. I would never presume. Just asking some questions to folks who like knives. Especially Emerson Knives, because I like 'em too.

Cheers, and thanks for the input.

-Brett
 
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I've owned an XHD CQC-7 in the past. It is a very well made knife and are absolute tanks for sure. I feel that they are Emerson's way of giving his fans what they asked for as best as he can while sticking to the way he wants to build knives. Upgraded steel, thick Ti liners with steel inserts, a flipper on bearings, and a Ti backspacer. The blade stock is also thicker than the originals. I suppose I'm what you'd call an Emerson "purist" and really just prefer the original style.
 
^^^Folks, this guy knows his knives, and more importantly, is as good as they come in the category of human beings (I tend to prefer the category of "german shepherds", aforementioned character of Silvanus notwithstanding).
 
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Well, the rabbit-hole is deep...

I have barely scratched the surface in my reading, but I think I have found a few points that seem generally agreed upon on the subject. I'll continue to read more though (because I'm a nerd, I guess.) :D

Both steel and titanium are adequate as frame/liner locks. Most of the advantage of ti is the relatively low HRC (low-to-mid 40's) that many makers leave untreated and is easier to drill and shape than hardened steel (note: pre-drilled steel is also more prone to warping during heat treatment.) The' magic' of a frame/liner lock is actually found in the geometry of the lock contact (between 7 and 10 degree angle seems to be the sweet-spot; and here Ti is indeed more forgiving due to galling with the tang steel.) So, are steel inserts necessary? Not really. They can be useful for setting the correct contact geometry (but it involves the machining and fit of additional parts on the knife--more cost and labour intensive) and help prevent lock-stick. Some are made with an over-travel feature also.

In addition, a deformed ti lock face may be simply corrected by peening (sounds way easier than it is, IMO.) Some cutlers believe that peening also has the added benefit of work-hardening the ti lock face. Sounds plausible, but I haven't the knowledge to confirm this.

Spring 'memory' properties of titanium don't seem to be much of a factor to a folding knife. The force required for a steel liner to remain bent but a ti liner might return true from the same force, is in the land of crazy folder abuse, IMO.

TL/DR: read OM's post #6...

That is a debatable point. Titanium is a better "spring" in terms of memory, but will abrade faster than steel. I personally prefer the lockup be between differing materials, and properly treated titanium combined with good lockface/bladetang design will last a very long time under realistic usage (ie, batton with a fixed blade).

*I kinda regret rehashing this eye-rolling topic... :oops:

Thanks for your patience, folks!
 
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