Windbreaker jackets vs Waterproof jackets

C_Claycomb

C_Claycomb

Joined
Dec 11, 2000
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I live in England, where the weather is usually considered untrustworthy :rolleyes:, although not as treacherous as in Wales and Scotland :p. The upshot being that even on a sunny summer morning I will be thinking about packing a rain jacket "just in case". Over the years I have had a number of windbreaker type jackets (Supplex nylon with DWR sort of thing), mostly bought in the US or from US mail order and I have enjoyed the light weight, the pockets and the style, but in recent years I find I don't wear them much because of the lack of waterproofness, even for casual wear and have started to question what the point of such jackets is. Super light wind shells I do understand, but jackets that weigh and pack the same as a rain jacket, but are not waterproof, not so much. :confused:

What do you guys think? Do non-waterproof softshells and 3 season jackets have a place in the outdoors? Do you ever wear one for anything at all? Does the generally more predictable weather in areas of the US make them more practical?

Any particular makes / models that you have liked?
 
Weather is a bit more predictable in the midwest of the US. Except for those in the business to predict the weather. That being said, I carry an ultra light Mountain Hardware breathable shell in the car and wear a softshell liner type jacket when the temps run below 50F. This set up has me covered for 4 seasons, rain, snow, cold or warm.
 
Protection from both the wind and rain is obviously desirable as combined they are at their worst. My solution when not wearing a completely waterproof shell, or even just wearing a fleece which does neither for wind or rain, is to carry a 55 gallon drum liner in the jacket pocket. The drum liner takes up little space and is a true vapor barrier offering protection from my head to my knees. It also has a ton of other uses if needed.

I have worn the drum liner as an "emergency poncho" so many times now that I prefer it as there is no water seeping in the sides like a poncho and unlike a jacket, it keeps my shorts dry (I don't wear long pants) including when I sit down on something wet. In town I usually get an odd look and after a second or two for the person to digest what they are seeing I usually hear, "that's pretty smart."

That being said, I suggest you play with a garbage bag so you have a "just in case," and if it works for you, throw it in your wind breaker pocket and be happy.
 
I live in wet New England and my experience it depends on what I'm doing and how active I am. Generally speaking, the more active I am the less I want waterproof.

For low/no sweat activities like walking about town or lift served skiing or (most) hunting, waterproof/breathable makes sense as I'm unlikely to get too wet from the inside out due to sweat and the waterproofness is a big win.

For high exertion activities in moderate temperatures, I prefer non-waterproof windbreakers. They breath better and stop enough rain. The deal for me with high sweat activities is that I'm wet from sweat, so getting wet from rain is less of a big deal. I use a Pertex cycling jacket over various weights of polyester or fleece to create a sort of poor-man's version of the Petex and Pile system from Buffalo Systems (UK), as advocated by Scotman Chris Townsend. I also have a variant of the Marmot DriClime windshirt that is my #1 hiking outer layer and it needs to be a good strong steady rain to force me to put a waterproof jacket over that. It does just fine for spit and stop rain or steady fog and drizzle, so long as I'm hiking and pumping out heat.

The notable exception to this is in the shoulder (spring/fall) seasons in the high mountains. I can't hike hard enough to fight off the cold of cold rain (in the low 30s) and added to this, above treeline, waterproof breathables offer more wind protection.

The looser in my closet is the heavy and bulky 3-layer GoreTex mountain parka. I pretty much stick to the super light and easily packable 2 layer jackets like the Marmot Precip.
 
Windbreaker. I have a very lightweight and easily packable jacket that is mildly water resistant. True waterproof jackets don't usually breath well, and I end up soaked from sweat anyway. If it's a down pour, I'll stop and huddle under a tarp or umbrella.
 
For hot and wet Florida, I wear a North Face HyVent DT 100% nylon rain jacket, with zippers in the armpits. For colder weather I just wear layers of warm clothes underneath the jacket.

It is well made and works very well in heavy rains.
 
We camped this past weekend. The weather forecast was for a slight chance of scattered thunderstorms. I carried a light water "resistant" jacket. I wish I had carried a raincoat.
 
fishiker said:
We camped this past weekend. The weather forecast was for a slight chance of scattered thunderstorms. I carried a light water "resistant" jacket. I wish I had carried a raincoat.
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I never camp without a raincoat. Even if the forecast is for sunny days. One of the ten essentials.
 
Thanks guys! I have to say that I am a little surprised, it doesn't seem that anyone's opinion here differs all that much from how I have been looking at windbreakers. I too am a fan of something like Pertex over a fleece, sort of light weight poor-man's Buffalo. Did pretty well with that canoing on a wet and windy day on Loch Morar, Knoydart; a tight weave wicking shirt over the top of Polartec fleece. Nothing waterproof about it, but stayed warm enough and dry enough all day. One of the other members of the group managed to get all his clothing wet and became borderline hypothermic! That sort of light, thin, windproof has made sense to me ever since, but bulkier and heavier jackets which are not waterproof don't sound like they are a good idea, even with you folk over the pond.
 
Softshell washed in Nikwax shoftshell proofing solution will have you covered for all seasons and conditions barring a swim.
One with a hoodie does even better in heavy rain.
This would be a good option for wearing, with a proper rain jacket in your vehicle.
 
:o...errr...I didn't like to mention that I am something of a Paramo addict. Its their shirt, fleece and windproof smock that I tend to use, topped by one of their light weight rain smocks as needed. All liberally treated with Nikwax! I like the performance of their windproof smock, but it is seriously lacking of pockets and ventilation options.

My reason for starting the thread was to learn more about what folk use and what certain garments might be good for. Learning from others to go beyond the conditions and places that I have been myself :) Not the usual "I want to buy something, what should I get?" question. I already have too many jackets, but that's more to do with me not wearing them out before wanting to try something different. That's how I ended up with the Helikon Trooper I posted about a while ago. Since then I have tested it out against my Paramo windproof and found that the Trooper, with its greater number of pockets, better ventilation options and higher weight and bulk wetted through faster than the simple little Paramo Fuera. A disappointment to be sure. Led me to wonder whether such jackets are designed to get sold rather than to perform.

Chris
 
I still have my Helly Hansen orange Kagoule from the 60s
It was stormproof, but a sweat bag
I would wear a string vest under it and that is all
And my Blacks canvas anorak for hiking

But now
I wear a lightweight wind breaker with a hood to keep warm from the wind
A fleece or vest can go under it at a stop

If it rains a little, out come a small Fulton Hurricane folding umbrella in my pack side pocket (350 gms)
I find it a perfect sweat proof solution
It it starts sustained rain, then a poncho over me and my pack, supplemented by the umbrella to keep my head dry and no dripping collar
Poncho protects all the way down to the knees
The poncho is also sweat resistant
I have used this with great dry success in downpours in India and England
Umbrellas are also excellent for lunch stops in the rain

When hiking in the Lakes I have carried a big Fulton vented golfing umbrella that I use as a walling staff
It stand up to horizontal driven rains
So a poncho and golfing umbrella, and a waterproof pack cover for extra cover
A little idiosyncratic but it certainly works
 
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I destroy clothing because I do a lot of metal detecting in brush, in lake water, you name it. I wear those orange canvas duck carpenters pants because they stand up to brush etc. My clothes also get a semi permanent stink 'set' to them from the algae in eutrophic lakes so I grab used (salvation army) long and short sleeve shirts and thin pull over golf jackets for wind and light rain protection. Many times I am just in the water with a one piece coverall on. The point is that I layer, bring extra clothing for warm or cooler days, and water does not bother me much either way. If you don't worry about being a fashionista, go hunt through a used clothing store. Oh ya, I also have a Propper jacket and pant set that seem to be standing up to rough use so far, rip stop material and all that. I have been rained on with the Propper jacket and stayed warm enough. I'm covered in sweat stink anyway so the wet is not an issue as long as I am warm..............for light weight casual back up...a thin zip or pullover golf jacket. Surprising how they can help.
 
I have some frog toggs i got for hunting in wet weather. And have used them fishing out in the middle of windy lakes more then anything.
 
London averages around 24 inches of rainfall per year. My hometown averages 46 inches per year. I keep a hardshell with me everywhere I go. I have no use for non-waterproof jackets.
 
Generally, the more breathable something is the less waterproof it is. So windproof-breathable materials will be at one end of the scale and waterproof-non-breathable materials will be at the other. For example, cotton canvas and a rubber/plastic poncho at the extreme ends of the spectrum. When it is certain to be dry (pretty much only when it's below -18C) then cotton canvas is by far your best choice, and when it's certain to be wet rubber/plastic coats are your best bet (and restricting movement).

Anything that is breathable is not waterproof. Goretex is not waterproof. Coated Goretex is not waterproof just as waxed canvas is not (generally speaking, the top fabrics like Filson, Arc'teryx, Western Mountaineering will last a couple of days before enough water permeates the wax and fabric that your clothes start to get a little damp). Soft shells tend to be close to cotton canvas on the waterproof spectrum, and coated goretex/canvas are closer to rubber/plastic. Of course, this is all dependent on quality.

The main difference here, as others have suggested, is your level of activity, as your internal heat causes sweat to build up and make your clothes damp. Cotton canvas will reduce wetness from sweat the most as it is the most breathable, then soft shells, coated jackets, and rubber raincoats not at all.

Another question that should be asked here is, do you really need extreme clothing? In most cases a good wool blanket coat or even sweater will provide enough wind/water protection while being superior in every other way to the modern fabrics (hygiene, smell, noise, warmth, comfort, healthier for your skin). Unless you're in the mountains, on large lakes, or in very open areas you probably do not get the winds that even require the extreme clothing. The fact is that a lot of these supermaterials are marketed based on what extreme athletes or mountaineers require, and in being sponsored they help promote the image that you need the ultimate gear to show how true an outdoorsman you are. (And this is without getting into the possible inflation of prices due to military companies, and attempting to maximize profits out of cheap oil). Much like what owning an SUV is supposed to represent.

For most people, a 5 dollar wool sweater and a garbage bag is all that is really necessary. If you're running around in water-resistant/proof clothing when it's dry out (as is the fashion now from city to backwoods), you've been had by slick marketing, because it's really a bad choice. Keep the waterproofs in your pack until you need them.
 
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Chignecto Woodsman said:
Generally, the more breathable something is the less waterproof it is. So windproof-breathable materials will be at one end of the scale and waterproof-non-breathable materials will be at the other. For example, cotton canvas and a rubber/plastic poncho at the extreme ends of the spectrum. When it is certain to be dry (pretty much only when it's below -18C) then cotton canvas is by far your best choice, and when it's certain to be wet rubber/plastic coats are your best bet (and restricting movement).
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Best? That depends entirely on what you are doing while out. The trick is to stay as dry as possible from the elements and from your own sweat. Once you and your clothing are wet, matters not the source.
 
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