Winter camping comfort at night

Codger_64 said:
Ya'll guys got me turning up the heat here. I'll double down on the candle lantern idea in a small tent. It puts out more btu's of heat than you would think. I've also been known to lay an insulated coat over the top of my bag, as long as it doesn't compress the bag insulation. And the pee bottle makes good recycled heat in the foot of your bag. Just be sure it seals well.
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To use a candle for some heat and comfort sounds like a good idea. I just then think again that I should keep ventilation at a low to keep the heat inside which in turn would maybe become a moisture problem?
 
Thomas Linton said:
If you were alive, condensation from perspiration (in some amount 24/7/365) would have been absorbed by the down during your occupancy of the sleeping bag.

Still, all that insulation should have kept you warm enough for one night. One or more of the issues noted above is/are probably applicable.

Insulation under you is, for the most part, as effective at its thickness. Compare thickness over you vs. under you with this setup. What does it measure, respectively?
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Thanks. Do you mean the ratio of thickness of insulation under me to over me? The thermarest plus the foam pad was about an inch maybe? The thickness of the fluffy down sack likely more like 5? I guess you are implying to add more ground insulation and I totally agree !!
 
Watch it when combining 2 bags. Unless the larger bag has wide girth(typical is 63-64") shoulders and the smaller bag is the typical 59" for the more minimalist versions, the down will be somewhat compressed in both bags. I can do this with my Western Mtneering Highlite 35* (super light at 16oz total, 1/2 zip, 59" wide, tight foot box) in my Marmot old style Dryloft Pinnacle 15*(2lb 9oz) with 64" girth. =aprox -15* or so. Have yet to need too tho.

The above goes the same for layers. Too much on and your bags loft might be compromised.

I used a candle lantern for awhile. Threw it away and just carry a 2-3 of those tiny tea candles. They do add warmth as well as dry some of the tent condensation and/or wet layers from the prior days hike. Just lay it out on your foam stove/cook/lay a hot pot on..um..pad(you should have one. this is one of its many uses), skillet, pot, whatever..to support it while protecting your chit from it turning over or whatever. The glass globed lanterns are heeeeeavy.. Give off less light then a bare candle.. Get and stay crazy hot as hell for a surprisingly long time(don't close one up with your open palm).. Relatively fragile.

Weather permitting, I always try to lay my bag out in hte sun late morning for an hour or so. While in it, your constantly giving off moisture, and it has to evaporate up and out thru the bags insulation and shell. A small portion of that is inevitably captured in the insulation. Look up what a bag "Vapor barrier" is. Its like sleeping in a plastic bag(yuck) but it keeps all moisture from being transferred from you to the bag. Mainly used for long winter expeditions and such when ice buildup/accumulation in the insulation over days on end, is a reality and can be a huge problem(while adding pounds to the bags weight).

I'm surprised the OP was cold. Sounded like he should've been golden.
 
I used to enjoy winter camping even as a boy scout and I took a 8" 2x4 and drove several long nails through it and impaled a "drip free" candle on the nails. I took a metal gallon can cut the bottom out and used a nail to punch hundreds of holes in the container. That one candle heated up the tent easily even with 18" of snow and temps in the low 20s.
 
I can see "too much" insulation as a problem, but that is a function of thickness, not the number of layers. How does the number of layers. as such, create any negatives? By the air trapped between layers?

The down inside layer/artificial outer layer setup would address a good part of the "Down Problem" as the warm moist air migrating outwards from your body would tend to reach Dew Point in the artificial, hydrophobic zone rather than the down (sponge) zone. The weight of the outer layer would force some of the air out of the down, reducing loft.
 
And yes, it is a trade off when closing up a given tent. Yes you capture warmth.. but you also stifle ventilation. This is why I always try to have 'some' ventilation, like when closing up ones tent for the night in the winter. Enough to stop the wind and such from evacuating what captured heat there is.. but not so much as to cause crazy condensation. Leave the door open a couple inches at the top. Open a small amt to a window preferably at the other end of the tent. Etc. Etc.
 
smokinbasser said:
I used to enjoy winter camping even as a boy scout and I took a 8" 2x4 and drove several long nails through it and impaled a "drip free" candle on the nails. I took a metal gallon can cut the bottom out and used a nail to punch hundreds of holes in the container. That one candle heated up the tent easily even with 18" of snow and temps in the low 20s.
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You missed: "NO FLAMES IN TENTS" :D
 
I skimmed through the thread and don't know if it's been mentioned yet but an excellent trick is a Nalgene of boiling water by your feet. Don't skimp on the bottle quality (if it leeks, you freeze) so a standard plastic Nalgene works, but I always use a stainless Guyot bottle. Here's how you do it: a few minutes before you go to bed, boil a Quart of water and pour it carefully into your Nalgene. Put a clean sock around the Nalgene or a neoprene cover to avoid burning yourself and delay the heat escape. Put this bottle at the foot of your sleeping bag (inside, not outside) and enjoy. I've woken up at 3am and the bottle was still warm.
A few other tips:

-Really fluff up your sleeping bag, especially if it's down. Don't be gentle on it, you want it as fluffy as possible.
-Wear a really warm hat.
-Eat something high in calories right before bed and bring some trail mix to bed to eat as soon as you wake up due to being cold. A bit of food really causes your body to warm up.
-Pee if you wake up because you have to go. Just get it over with but do a bit of exercising on your way back to the tent. A bit of jogging or jumping jacks will warm you up and peeing is a good reason to get up.
-Sleep tight in your tents. We squeeze 3 guys into a tent that we only sleep 2 in in the summer. This prevents landing on cold spot by not rolling as much and the best insulation is a whole person beside you. The coldest I've ever slept was below zero Fahrenheit with a windchill well below. I slept amazingly well in the center of two guys with a 15 degree Fahrenheit down Stoic bag. It was stupid to bring that bag, but it's very accurately rated and was not supposed to get that cold on the trip. I will bring that bag on winter hikes because I know I can get down lower than the rating when I wear my down coat and insulated pants to bed.
 
Comfort? I am all about comfort during winter camping.

Outside. Walked the entire day and well into the night. Setting up camp during a storm isn't fun.



But look inside my Kifaru paratipi:





My layers being dried. Yes I am naked because everything was damp from the long hike and it was over 90 inside. The warm Exped Downmat 9DLX/LW and sleeping bag. I am sitting on a Ridgerest closed cell pad. These days for longer hikes I pack a Downmat 7 XS plus a larger sized Ridgerest. Less weight but still very comfortable. But winter storms don't always mean snow. If you're really unlucky it will rain.

During this trip it rained through the night and all the next day was pure unrelenting suck.



My Kifaru 4-man tipi.



Food on the stove.



Once again Downmat 9DLX and sleeping bag with fluffy down vest for extra warmth in the bag.



Ok let talk a bit colder however rain at just above freezing is tops for putting someone in a hurt box IMHO. How about -15 F with 3 feet of fresh powder plus a good stiff wind. Not sure what the wind chill was but fighting snowshoes all day makes for a chilly time when stopping. Real chilly.

Cold.



Even colder.



So what's a person to do? I forgot my snow pegs plus other camp floating items so we dug in. One of the few times I didn't go solo and was happy for the extra help. Broke that no sweating rule big time.



Look at this insane comfort. DIY woodstove melting snow and heating the Kifaru 4-man tipi with liner to maybe 100 degrees above the outside temps.



Snow turned to hot soup.



Behold. A closed cell pad under my Downmat 9DLX. A down bag with what seems like a foot of fluffy loft. The fluffy black down vest and thin sleeping bag liner. All bumping up against a warm, dry tipi liner. With the wind whipping in the sub zero night the level of comfort was beyond even my pampered expectations.

 
awestib said:
To use a candle for some heat and comfort sounds like a good idea. I just then think again that I should keep ventilation at a low to keep the heat inside which in turn would maybe become a moisture problem?
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Not just a canldle, but a candle lantern. It has a metal and glass body that heats somewhat like a stove and radiates it whereas a bare candle the heat mostly goes straight up. It also provides some protection from spilled wax and flame if it get's upset. They are made to hang if you like.

As for ventilation, consider that your breath is exhaling steam all night. It has to condense somewhere. My lowest (actual recorded) temp was ten below zero American. I stayed warm, but in the morning the inside of the tent and all it's contents were covered in thick frost from my breath. I had not allowed enough ventilation. Warmer but really damp is not better than air exchanged to control humidity and condensation. Colder and dry is actually warmer feeling. The candle lantern, picked up later, helped the condensation and kept the tent warmer even with increased ventelation.

I also pretty well stripped down to long johns and put on extra thick wool socks, wore a full cover wool balclava and used a military arctic down bag. That was thirty years ago and I can't do that anymore. My metabolism has changed. And I am not an Alaskan or Canadian.
 
Very nice. My late brother recently left me 3 of those Kifaru 4-man tipis. All new never used. Had 4 stoves too and install kits. One stove was ti. Sold the stoves but still have the tipis. My group doesn't share tents. We all hike self contained. ..meaning we all carry our own shelters, stoves, and filters. Just the way it is. Yes of course we share if someones chit goes down, or was forgotten, etc. Which WILL happen when you go enough.
 
Macchina said:
I skimmed through the thread and don't know if it's been mentioned yet but an excellent trick is a Nalgene of boiling water by your feet. Don't skimp on the bottle quality (if it leeks, you freeze) so a standard plastic Nalgene works, but I always use a stainless Guyot bottle. . . . Put a clean sock around the Nalgene or a neoprene cover to avoid burning yourself and delay the heat escape. Put this bottle at the foot of your sleeping bag (inside, not outside) and enjoy. I've woken up at 3am and the bottle was still warm.
A few other tips:

. . .
-Pee if you wake up because you have to go. Just get it over with but do a bit of exercising on your way back to the tent. A bit of jogging or jumping jacks will warm you up and peeing is a good reason to get up.
. . .
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Ah, but there is yet another use for a very tightly-stoppered bottle. :)
 
Big +1 on the UCO candle lantern. A little venting is needed IMO but I never had a problem with a candle. Remember to take care with any open flame in a tent. Some things like grills etc should NEVER be used inside an enclosed space/shelter. People have died doing that.

 
The pics in this thread alone are well worth the price of admission, not to mention the great tips :thumbup:
 
Boot tops left for the night wedged between the mattress and the bag may not cause you to sleep warmer, but it saves much foul language the next morning.
 
Here are a few tips that helped me out. Drink enough water and don't worry about the 3 am piss. Without enough water you're looking for a bad night. Better to take the leak and go back to sleep than be colder all night. However go easy on the coffee. Caffeine and cold weather don't mix well IMO. I will drink some earlier in the nigh cuz I am addicted however not within hours of my bed time. Honestly it should be avoided all together but as stated I am hooked. Wear clothing in layers and remove them as yea heat up. Put them back on again as your activity slows. Starting out a night all beaten up from the day isn't good. I prefer not to wear too much clothing inside my bag. Insulation from the ground is key. Never use an inflatable pad that isn't insulated. You will get cold back and die. Ok yea night not die but betting you won't get any sleep. Never 100% trust anything that holds air. Pack a closed cell pad for a backup. A sleeping cap plus warm socks are really really nice. Being tired and a bit hungry isn't ideal but not the end of the world. Being cold and wet on the other hand is never ok. That must be dealt with right away. The cold has a way of staking a person.
 
That bottle of hot water you went to bed with the night before will be ready to make the first pot of coffee when all the rest is frozen. Even so, if your cookpot/billy will take it, put water in it the night before. It is easier to thaw on a stove or fire if it is already in a metal pan instead of a plastic bottle.

Oh... and headlamps and penlights go in the sleeping bag too. They don't work worth a flip when it is real cold.

I guess folks have digital devices with temp modes now, but I used a Taylor Instruments thermometer made like an inkpen in a metal case. No idea where it went over the years. I just have a cheap zipper-pull thermometer now. Not real accurate.
 
awestib said:
Good advice hear pinnah! Yes, any kind of movement caused some "chill". Will try those wind shirts for sure. And, I mentioned it above already, the hips got cold so yes, I believe the insulation from the ground was not sufficient.
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Two questions...

1) Did you sleep in the base layer shirt that you had hiked in? Ditto the fleece sweater?

2) Does your bag have an inner draft collar and if so, did you have it tightly cinched up?


Regarding base layers, here in the Whites of New Hampshire, there are 3 common approaches. The first and most common is people sleeping in the shirt they just hiked in. It's damp and the morning complaint is being "chilly". Not cold. But "chilly". Our bodies sweat constantly and we don't notice it normally. But in a cold sleeping bag, you'll feel it if cold air moves the moist air next to your skin. A damp shirt next to the skin keeps you just a teeny bit damp and that's how you get "chills".

The second approach is to carry a second, dry shirt (and long johns) and to change them just before/after bed. I've not found this to be the best as I end up getting the dry shirt wet by morning.

The third and least approach is to use a Vapor Barrier shirt. Stephenson's Warmlite still makes a true, non-breathable VB shirt and on really cold trips, I carry this. I put it on in camp over my base layer and under my fleece. I wear it while cooling down and it turns my core heat into dry heat, which forces some of the moisture out of my damp fleece. I do stay damp inside the VB shirt but it works. I don't chill and my body stops needing to sweat, so I minimize fluid loss. On less cold trips, I carry a Pertex Windshirt designed by Will Steger for his Antarctic crossing. It's essentially a cycling/xc top but I use it just like the VB shirt, over my inner layer and under my fleece. It slows (doesn't stop) the transport of moisture and all but eliminates the "chilling" effect of moving in your sleep which exhausts the air from the micro climate near the skin. A cheap way to do this is to get a cheap running jacket and stitch the back vent closed.

Regarding the sleeping bag, I find that I get chilled if I allow any movement of air in and and out of the bag as I sleep. I find a tight fitting draft collar to be a) a royal PITA and b) essential. If a bag doesn't have one, I'll wrap my fleece sweater in a roll and stuff it around my neck to act as one.

Regarding cold hips, non-compressible clothing like your fleece pants can go under your pads to boost the R value under you. Still, that's surprising to me that you got cold hips with double pads.

Regarding double bagging, I don't advise it unless it's the only option to get bulk warmth. As others have noted, it's not efficient as it compresses the inner bag and it's heavy. I would rather sleep in my high loft jacket than carry a second bag.

Regarding bivy sacks, I don't like them for winter. In floored tent, I prefer to use just a bag as it minimizes moisture condensation on the bag. Bivy sacks tend to hold moisture next to the bag. In a floorless tent, I use a larger bag cover with a rectangular foot print, waterproof bottom and very breatheable Pertex top. Mine is an ancient TNF. Sleeping pad goes INSIDE the bag cover, which prevents the problem of getting snow between the pad and the bag. I don't sleep out unprotected entirely in the winter.

Regarding candle lanterns, I carry one for emotional support more than warmth. Cheers up the tent a lot. Bag and jacket are the key to warmth though, as is the VBL shirt.

More of my thoughts on VBLs here. Bottom line, I continue to use VBL shirts (at night) and socks (during the day).

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/vb.txt
 
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