Wool/Fleece outer layer

runningboar

runningboar

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May 27, 2006
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Considering the very good and informative thread on the virtues of wool vs fleece I thought I would inquire what people use over it. I think everyone agrees that both wool and fleece work very well as an insulating layer but neither block wind or rain very well, so what do yall use as an outer cover?

I have tried Goretex and was not overly impressed, I think it's waterproof properties are over rated, it is also too loud in the woods. I am currently using an LL Bean hunting coat that has, according to them, a special soft polyester shell that is soft and quite and sheds rain and wind very well, better than goretex in my opinion. Anybody have the perfect outer shell that doesn't sound like crumpling paper in the woods. Chris
 
For general outdoor use as an outer layer, I have used a Cabela's 3 season jacket. I bought one just a bit too big for me, so it fits loose with easy movement over a bulky Peter Storm wool fishermans sweater, or Woolrich Alaskan wool shirt. Its soft and quiet, for when me and the Mrs. do our nature watching in the woods.

For harsher weather I have a Alpha Industries black fiield jacket that I rubbed down with the same re-proofing wax I use on my waxed cotten long foul weather coat. It makes the field jacket pretty weather proof.
 
I have an army issue coat I always wear on top. I also have a thick leather jacket I'll use. Both are warm, have many pockets and block out wind / water. The downside is neither contribute to an innocent appearance very well. The army coat is my first choice, because the long sleeves and hood can go a long way at times. In the winter when I'll be wearing hats and gloves either way, it doesn't matter as much. Leather coat has less mobility, but more physical protection (The latter of which is rarely needed outside of a fist fight or falling off a bike).
 
Never had a problem with goretex (unless it was really old and heavily used - it will eventually become de-laminated after which it's not waterproof). I've stood around in some pretty fierce weather in my goretex jacket, laughing at how dry I was.

That being said, my goretex jacket is no longer water repellant. The nylon outershell has lost it's DWR coating so the outer layer does get soaked but water never gets through to me. If I bought some DWR spray and re-applied it then the jacket would shed water like a duck again. But it's still waterproof and that's what counts.

The big advantage to Gore-tex (and similar laminates like Precip) is that it allows water vapor to pass through but not drops of liquid water. So the water vapor that your body produces from sweating isn't trapped inside the jacket resulting in wet clothing which will of course promote hypothermia.

But, yeah, it's noisy.
 
kennedy,

I have been issued and worn goretex since about 1992, I have been in the fiercest weather possible to include hurricanes, and I don't find it to live up to the hype. When brand new it does very well, after a few FTXs the water starts seeping through soaking you to the skin. Maybe the Army uses and abuses equipment and Goretex can't stand up to the strain, or maybe the Army's cheapest bidder builds junk but whatever I think goretex is way over rated. Chris
 
Vivi said:
I have an army issue coat I always wear on top. I also have a thick leather jacket I'll use. Both are warm, have many pockets and block out wind / water. The downside is neither contribute to an innocent appearance very well. The army coat is my first choice, because the long sleeves and hood can go a long way at times. In the winter when I'll be wearing hats and gloves either way, it doesn't matter as much. Leather coat has less mobility, but more physical protection (The latter of which is rarely needed outside of a fist fight or falling off a bike).
Click to expand...

You might want to consider investing in a breathable waterproof jacket. For me, it's probably the single most important piece of outdoor equipment. Why? It allows me to be out in life-threatening weather.

Some reasonably priced options:

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/...ar-Transitional-Parka-Waterproof-For-Men.html

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/...3-In-1-Waterproof-and-Breathable-For-Men.html

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/328,44028_Lowe-Alpine-Trail-Pro-Jacket-Waterproof-for-Men.html

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/...erproof-Breathable-and-Windproof-For-Men.html
 
I think you're probably right about that - either the Army's too tough on it or the suppliers are building junk. Last time I went camping I wore my used military-issue goretex pants (e bay purchase) that I thought was waterproof. Until I stood around in the rain with 25 mph gusts for a couple hours - started to soak right through.

My jacket held up fine though. It's several years old - brand is Moonstone.
 
akennedy73 said:
...
That being said, my goretex jacket is no longer water repellant. The nylon outershell has lost it's DWR coating so the outer layer does get soaked but water never gets through to me. If I bought some DWR spray and re-applied it then the jacket would shed water like a duck again. But it's still waterproof and that's what counts.

The big advantage to Gore-tex (and similar laminates like Precip) is that it allows water vapor to pass through but not drops of liquid water. So the water vapor that your body produces from sweating isn't trapped inside the jacket resulting in wet clothing which will of course promote hypothermia.
. . .
Click to expand...

With Gore-Tex garments, the thermal "push" of body heat is not strong enough to drive mositure through a film of liquid water. So if your Gore-Tex jacket has lost it's water repellant treatment on the outside, it will not "breath" in heavy rain.

I use Gore-Tex in mild weather but shift to merely water-repellant fabrics when it goes below freezing. I have experienced too much condensation on the inside of my Gore-Tex when it gets that cold.
 
I've had a North Face Gore-tex outer for a long time. Never had any issues with it. Still love it. You do have to maintain the DWR, but mine vents really well and has never leaked. It is a two ply Gore-tex. I had an old L.L. Bean three ply, and it was total overkill IMO. It did get too hot, and did not vent well.
My North Face is six years old, still goin' strong.
Oh, and it is noisey.
 
hmmm... this thread has grabbed my interest.

to answer the first part.. wool vs fleece.

i would choose wool. it stays warmer when wet but chafes a little depending on the style of sweater that your wearing. but its not a bad idea to have a fleece as a backup either? i wear both. i usually wear "underarmor" (yes yes people say its overrated but i find it quite comfortable and helps disipate sweat quicker). over top of that a wool sweater and then a fleece (weather permitting).

if its going to rain and it does alot of the time up here in bc. i pull over a shell outta my pack. the shell that i wear is nothing special. its a heavy guage gortex taiga shell i picked up at the local taiga outlet store. its pretty light for a heavy guage gortex and has kept me dry in the wettest conditions.

then again thats personal experience. perhaps you should invest into a set of good rain gear if your travelling in wet conditions. i also carry a poncho with me in my pack incase of DOWNPOUR... an old army issue poncho works wonders because it is so versitile. you can catch rain water in it to drink, use it to make a quick shelter from the sun (needs a few modifications) as well as keeping you dry in wet weather.

my 2cents =)
 
akennedy73 said:
You might want to consider investing in a breathable waterproof jacket. For me, it's probably the single most important piece of outdoor equipment. Why? It allows me to be out in life-threatening weather.
Click to expand...

I'll take a look at those for curiosity sake, but I haven't had any problems with my coat so far. I've walked around in thunderstorms out in the open when it was a complete downpour, gotten soaked to the skin everywhere but stayed dry where the coat was covering. In the woods you get to avoid the worst of the rain too by hiding under trees and such. As far as protection from the elements go I'm very happy with it. It has a removable liner that I bought with it, so pretty soon I can button that it and it will work for winter too.

I would like to try a "breathable" jacket to compare how hot each one makes me during more active moments though. Have you had a chance to compare the two (Or anyone else)? If so, how'd you feel about the heat difference?
 
Vivi said:
I would like to try a "breathable" jacket to compare how hot each one makes me during more active moments though. Have you had a chance to compare the two (Or anyone else)? If so, how'd you feel about the heat difference?
Click to expand...

Vivi, sorry but no sure what you're asking to be compared here....

The breathable advantage of gore-tex is that it doesn't trap water vapor coming off your body (sweat) when you're active. The water vapor passes through the gore-tex and into the air. If you exercise in most waterproof jackets (that aren't breathable) you'll get soaked in your own sweat - the inside of the jacket will literally be dripping after a hard run because all the water vapor is trapped.

Gore-tex doesn't offer much warmth (insulative capacity) - so a fleece is usually worn underneath. It is a good windbreaker though. Goretex (or any breathable laminate like Precip) keeps you dry from the inside (your sweat evaporates) and dry from the outside (waterproof when it rains) and it prevents heat loss from wind (windbreaker).

The concern with most textiles is if you get soaked and then the temperature starts to drop simultaneously. If you've got shelter and a fire, then you'll probably be ok. But if you're on the trail and you've got to keep moving, you can get screwed. This is more likely to occur in the mountains, of course.

It may sound silly to think the proper jacket can save your life. But most people who've spent any time hiking around in the mountains will agree with me. You don't see backpackers in the mountains wearing army coats or leather jackets.

Hope that helps! :thumbup:
 
Vivi,

I agree with every word akennedy said, even the Army is getting away from the field jacket you described. The Army Goretex jacket, fleece jacket, and wet weather jacket have zippers under the armpit to allow for ventilation when exerting yourself. It is actually a very well thought out system, I have just been displeased with goretex, maybe because it was hyped to me so much and it did not appear to me to be the wonder fabric it was cracked up to be, it is still so far above other materials as to provide no comparison. I would be hunting in my Goretex if it was not so damn loud. Chris
 
You make two excellent points - I really should re-apply the DWR coating to my jacket.

I have noticed increased condensation in really cold conditions. I suppose it's due to the temperature differential - warm wet air inside the jacket hitting the cold jacket and it starts to "sweat" just like a cold glass of beer. In that case, using just a water-repellent shell is a great idea.
 
I'll look into them. I think clothing / shelter is one of the most vital areas of survival equipment, so it makes sense to look for the best that you can afford.

The army jacket I use is the type with 4 snap close pockets in the front, a zipper on the collar with a hood and a string at the waist to pull it tight. Zippers and snaps on the front, adjustable cuffs on the sleeves. The tag says:

Stock No. 8415-01-099-7839
Coat, Cold Weather: Field
DBA100-93-C-6436

This and the leather jacket work good for the colder seasons, where sweat isn't much of an issue.
 
Vivi said:
I'll look into them. I think clothing / shelter is one of the most vital areas of survival equipment, so it makes sense to look for the best that you can afford.
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Good call, Vivi - you're absolutely right.

I once went to a seminar with a tracker (not Tom Brown!) - he related a story of when he gave up his army jacket and started wearing goretex. He was standing around a fire after being caught in a rainstorm and his jacket got wet. As he began to feel the onset of hypothermia even as he stood by that fire, he realized that his current system wasn't getting the job done.

I got my goretex jacket from Sierra Trading post for around $90-95. Money well spent.
 
runningboar said:
... I would be hunting in my Goretex if it was not so damn loud. Chris
Click to expand...

There are some nordic manufacturers that make quiet hunting clothes with gore-tex lining (as rain protection).
At least they did some years ago when I tried to find an answer to this very question (quiet AND waterproof clothing for hunting).
The brands I found to be the best was Norrona (Norwegian) and Haglofs (Swedish).

I don't know if these brands are being sold where you live. I guess you'll have to find out over the net.

/ Karl
 
runningboar said:
Anybody have the perfect outer shell that doesn't sound like crumpling paper in the woods. Chris
Click to expand...

For the quiet outer garment, consider a thin synthetic knit or a thin
synthetic fleece. Blaze orange vests and coats will go on sale soon;
you may like some of these. An old flannel shirt (xxx-large) will keep
things quiet, but it will absorb too much water in the rain.

Your windbreaker garment, with a hard and noisy finish could be worn
Under the thin quiet garment. Brush will rub against the quiet garment.
I have always used layering, and always have a large pack for keeping
light weight clothing.

My pack looks heavy, but it aint; it is full of fluff garments.
I cover the pack with blaze orange vest ($2 on sale) when I
hike in the fall, whether I am hunting or not. Covering your
pack with quiet cloth does help. On some packs, aluminum
fasteners joining aluminum structures will squeak; that must
be fixed or use another pack. Gurgling water bothers me, but
I am not sure about deer; I put containers up-right and they
gurgle less. Bladders might be better, I suppose.

Your pant legs and gaiters are another source of noise, even if you
are in open country. You might opt for quiet fabrics here too; I
have used double knit pants, yes like from the 70's. Exposed wool
below the knee is not good; it attracts snow and moisture.
I quit wearing gaiters when hunting, though I carry a small pair,
in case I need them for survival.

I learned about noisy gear, because I made just about every mistake.

Slow down, make less noise.
Enjoy the hunt, and just being there.
 
I'm pretty old school when it comes to wool. In fact, my deer hunting wardrobe started with wool, moved to synthetics, and is now moving back to wool. Wool continues to provide some warmth even when it's wet. Its big disadvantage is that it is heavy and even heavier when it gets wet. If you are going to be out in the woods in a rain storm, I wear a parka and gortex pants over whatever I am wearing. I try not to be in the woods in major rain storms. I don't particularly like to hunt in the rain, but I will tolerate the rain on opening day or the first few days of the season. After that, I stay home. Same applies to fishing although in warm weather I am more willing to tolerate rain while trout fishing. No deer or fish is worth getting sick over. Hiking, well I have rain gear with me to put over my other stuff. Hopefully it is temporary.
 
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