Wootz steel--how does it stack up against supersteels like K390, S90V, M390, M4?

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TennToadsticker

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I've heard a lot about the mythical strength and flexibility of Wootz. I've seen old Wootz blades sell for $1,000+ online. I have also seen some offered by Oleg Krymlin that are priced in the $200-300 range. I'm wondering if steel gurus like Ankerson have ever tested Wootz to see how it stacks up against today's top-tier supersteels (S90V, M390, M4, etc.). I expect Wootz would be in a class by itself when it comes to toughness, but have no idea about edge retention or corrosion resistance. I'd appreciate hearing of any test results, or of any links to previous threads where this has been discussed. Thanks.
 
It's been a while since I read up on that stuff so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. From what I remember it came from a specific iron deposit that happened to have a touch of vanadium in it (although the miners & bladesmiths wouldn't have understood this). The skill of the bladesmiths combined with the quality of the deposit likely accounted for it's reputation in the old days. Here's an article: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html

I doubt that it would hold it's own in edge retention with modern high-alloy, carbide-rich steels. Toughness would be another matter.

Here's a relevant thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...id-they-can-t-be-made-anymore?highlight=Wootz
 
Forgetaboutit!


Wootz steel was the Hot Ticket in it's day.


Knives made from genuine Wootz demand high prices because of their historic value.


But they can't be compared to the steels you mention.







Big Mike
 
Hi jeffphansen77,

Probably you know this, but for people who did not, the article you pointed to is written by Prof. John. D. Verhoeven, who also wrote:

_Experiments on Knife Sharpening_ by John. D. Verhoeven (2004)
http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/...te.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf
Note: Free and downloadable. Has a ton of electron microscope pictures of knife edges.

_Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel_ by John D. Verhoeven (2005)
http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf
Note: Free and downloadable!

_Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist _ by John D. Verhoeven (2007)
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Metallurgy-Non-Metallurgist-J-Verhoeven/dp/0871708582/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1
Note: Not free, but looks interesting. Highly recommended by www.HypeFreeBlades.com

The article you pointed to:
_The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades_ by J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch
JOM (Journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society), 50 (9) (1998), pp. 58-64.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html
Note: Free and online

Verhoeven did some research in reproducing historical Damascus steels, as you mentioned. He's retired now (emeritus), but you can find his academic web page here, including a list of his publications and books:
http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/who-we-are/people/emeritus-professors/john-verhoeven.html

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
As the others have said, wootz steel was significantly better than European steel from the middle ages. It is not a match for the performance of modern alloys.

Verhoeven tested the performance of Wootz steel and found that modern alloys significantly outperformed it.
 
Many thanks to jeffphansen, big mike, lagrangian, and knarfeng for your informative responses. Nice to know Wootz has nothing on the steel of my blue PM2 or Gayle Bradley.
 
Lagrangian said:
Hi jeffphansen77,

Probably you know this, but for people who did not, the article you pointed to is written by Prof. John. D. Verhoeven, who also wrote:

_Experiments on Knife Sharpening_ by John. D. Verhoeven (2004)
http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/...te.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf
Note: Free and downloadable. Has a ton of electron microscope pictures of knife edges.

_Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel_ by John D. Verhoeven (2005)
http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf
Note: Free and downloadable!

_Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist _ by John D. Verhoeven (2007)
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Metallurgy-Non-Metallurgist-J-Verhoeven/dp/0871708582/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1
Note: Not free, but looks interesting. Highly recommended by www.HypeFreeBlades.com

The article you pointed to:
_The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades_ by J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch
JOM (Journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society), 50 (9) (1998), pp. 58-64.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html
Note: Free and online

Verhoeven did some research in reproducing historical Damascus steels, as you mentioned. He's retired now (emeritus), but you can find his academic web page here, including a list of his publications and books:
http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/who-we-are/people/emeritus-professors/john-verhoeven.html

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
Click to expand...

If it matters, J. D. Verhoeven has a solid reputation amongst "us scientists.":) A good man and a careful researcher.
 
I was at the Orlando Blade smith show and meet Al Pendray. there was a silk scarf there and pictures of (I believe) Al cutting it floating in mid air. Has anybody else tried this with any other MODERN blade? This is the fable? of the general of the Arab army how showed the British General why they couldn't be beat. He said "Our swords are sharper than yours" then cut a floating silk scarf. This was a scene in a Movie once.
 
Yes it was a fable and the scene perhaps from a movie. What happens to that edge when it impacts a shield or another sword? I suppose it would be a good steel if you enemy wore nothing but silk scarves....
 
Yes it was a fable and the scene perhaps from a movie. What happens to that edge when it impacts a shield or another sword? I suppose it would be a good steel if you enemy wore nothing but silk scarves....
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Sal G. stated one time that he was testing a knife in Aus8(w) , a version of aus 8 with a bit of added tungsten and they got it sharp enough to cut a cloth dropped onto the blade from above.

Lots of people here can sharpen up a knife to "whittle hairs". Some have tested them that way for whatever the reason.

Speaking for myself here, which I feel more comfortable doing there is a reason I don't carry EDC knives thinned out and sharpened to commercial razor and beyond levels. It's not practical and a waste of my time. Sure, I've had fun showing off how sharp I can make things but you typically won't see me carrying blades that thin, or fine.

On the other hand I have an old ( 80's)Gerber that still has the untouched factory edge on it. It's a tool steel ( "V" steel = Vascowear) and I bought it from a dealer as NOS. It is at least 50 degrees inclusive but easily shaves dry with no problem.

I would be impressed seeing a real sword that could do the falling silk scarf trick yet withstand sword and armor impacts.

The swords designed for hacking away at other swords and steel shields tended to be pretty obtuse, and not even all that hard. They still dealt devastating blows on people, even underneath chain mail.

"Samurai" style swords, though amazingly advanced weapons still weren't designed for a lot of that. They were known to break even with very skilled warriors wielding them. No doubt fast and lethal, the better ones with very skilled swordsmen were known to be able to cut people ( sometimes more than one during testing) in two, bifurcating them. Yet leaving for 10 years going off to war European style against other European style opponents in heavy armor wielding heavy swords, maces, axes, pikes, and plate and chain mail armor with shields would a Katana be your first choice?

Maybe not so much.

By the way they also make a VG10 (w) version, though it's a special order thing. It's one I wouldn't mind trying. The Tungsten percentage IIRC is under one percent so I doubt it's going to substantially affect wear resistance.
takefu foundry. VG10(w) is listed: http://e-tokko.com/eng_original_list.htm

Joe
 
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"known to be able to cut people ( sometimes more than one during testing) in two, bifurcating them" :eek:

He said, Bifurcating. ;) Cool word, dude. :thumbup::)
 
It was the word of the day. I had to think up a reason to use it.:o

Too much typing though without a cash prize. Next time I'll just jump up and call out seemingly random words....until the guys with the white coats come anyway. :)

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Sal G. stated one time that he was testing a knife in Aus8(w) , a version of aus 8 with a bit of added tungsten and they got it sharp enough to cut a cloth dropped onto the blade from above.

Lots of people here can sharpen up a knife to "whittle hairs". Some have tested them that way for whatever the reason.

Speaking for myself here, which I feel more comfortable doing there is a reason I don't carry EDC knives thinned out and sharpened to commercial razor and beyond levels. It's not practical and a waste of my time. Sure, I've had fun showing off how sharp I can make things but you typically won't see me carrying blades that thin, or fine.

On the other hand I have an old ( 80's)Gerber that still has the untouched factory edge on it. It's a tool steel ( "V" steel = Vascowear) and I bought it from a dealer as NOS. It is at least 50 degrees inclusive but easily shaves dry with no problem.

I would be impressed seeing a real sword that could do the falling silk scarf trick yet withstand sword and armor impacts.

The swords designed for hacking away at other swords and steel shields tended to be pretty obtuse, and not even all that hard. They still dealt devastating blows on people, even underneath chain mail.

"Samurai" style swords, though amazingly advanced weapons still weren't designed for a lot of that. They were known to break even with very skilled warriors wielding them. No doubt fast and lethal, the better ones with very skilled swordsmen were known to be able to cut people ( sometimes more than one during testing) in two, bifurcating them. Yet leaving for 10 years going off to war European style against other European style opponents in heavy armor wielding heavy swords, maces, axes, pikes, and plate and chain mail armor with shields would a Katana be your first choice?

Maybe not so much.

By the way they also make a VG10 (w) version, though it's a special order thing. It's one I wouldn't mind trying. The Tungsten percentage IIRC is under one percent so I doubt it's going to substantially affect wear resistance.
takefu foundry. VG10(w) is listed: http://e-tokko.com/eng_original_list.htm

Joe
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It's worth noting that typically speaking it's the bevel of a sword that does the cutting more so than the actual edge. The sharper the edge the easier it is to do, of course, but the function of cutting is force applied over a narrow diminished surface area to provide splitting pressure against a medium. Because European swords are still very thin behind the cutting edge, they are able to continue cutting even when nicked or blunt, in addition to causing blunt trauma. This is similar to how kitchen knives in the average household have atrocious edge, but folks manage to still cut with them. Also remember that the majority of armor on the battlefield was typically cloth, and as effective as it was it wasn't as prone towards causing blade damage when struck. Yes there was plenty of metal, too, but not as much as film would like you to think.

We'll put it this way--if I took a European sword and quickly filed the edges flat, then put ya' in a hauberk, how comfortable would you be with me taking a hard swing at you? :D
 
Also remember that the majority of armor on the battlefield was typically cloth, and as effective as it was it wasn't as prone towards causing blade damage when struck. Yes there was plenty of metal, too, but not as much as film would like you to thin
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Yes, cloth and leather combinations were much more common than real chain or plate armor. Civilian soldiers made up latge percentages of the forces. Only the professional armed forces would be equipped like we see on TV and movies for the most part. Heck, good equipment is expensive. We have pretty much all heard stories of the best Japanese sword making masters getting the equivalent of a small to decent sized farm or estate for what was considered the best swords of their time. Imagine being the king and having to equip a 20,000 man army to sail to France to help put down a rebellion. I guess you would be looking to get some of your money back from the locals as well as the insurrectionists.

Conquest was pretty much always a money making enterprise. Sometimes it didn't work out that way though.

In feudal Europe the nobles were required to have a certain amount of professional retainers/ soldiers ( depending on their rank and wealth) equipped with the state of the art equipment and training. They would fill out their quota with less well trained and equipped people drafted or volunteered ( sometimes by their families for any of numerous reasons). They had what they brought, or, if in a larger, wealthier area equipped by the nobility though not to the standards of the nobles own body of men or knights.
We'll put it this way--if I took a European sword and quickly filed the edges flat, then put ya' in a hauberk, how comfortable would you be with me taking a hard swing at you?
Click to expand...

Even with good quality chain over padding I could take a serious, or perhaps fatal wound from blunt trauma. Like police soft armor of today there are no guarantees. Still, I'd rather be wearing something than nothing at all.

Recall second chance vests demonstrations when Richard Davis would shoot himself with a 6 inch 44 magnum and film it? He had to put a phone book under the vest on the one I saw to help with the trauma and was still badly bruised from the ordeal. It was a full level 3 vest too, no trauma plates of course there. Those would have helped if ther were in the path, but even they still allowed damage from the impact.

So, I guess my answer is, You will have to catch me first! :)

Joe
 
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There is actually very little evidence for leather armor, as it was a more expensive material than cloth (which was still expensive) so such a degree that to make effective leather armor would have cost pretty close to having maille armor made. The closest thing would be a buff coat, which was a late development and comprised only the outermost layer of an otherwise cloth armor.

Swords during the medieval period were like cars, expense/quality wise. You could spend not tremendously much on a beat up second-hand Yugo, or spend a fortune on a Ferrari. Even at the low end it wasn't exactly chump change, but if you needed a sword, chances are you could at least afford one with a little effort. But polearms were the major weapons of war, anyhow. :D
 
I think that it was a bit more elite. Swords were more like choosing between a $50,000 Camaro and a $350,000 Ferrari. Regular foot soldiers would have more typically been armed with a pole arm or some kind of weapon like an axe or hammer with a dagger or some other short blade as a backup. Swords, like war horses, were the province of the well healed. I would suspect the same was true on the Muslim side. The number of high end edged weapons made of wootz was probably a pretty small percentage of the total. They might have been a little more common in India because that is where the stuff came from. Back then, pure steel was rare and expensive. You had to make it in small quantities, even in the later medieval period when you mgith have had some water powered smithing operations with "power hammers" and larger scale smelting operations.
FortyTwoBlades said:
There is actually very little evidence for leather armor, as it was a more expensive material than cloth (which was still expensive) so such a degree that to make effective leather armor would have cost pretty close to having maille armor made. The closest thing would be a buff coat, which was a late development and comprised only the outermost layer of an otherwise cloth armor.

Swords during the medieval period were like cars, expense/quality wise. You could spend not tremendously much on a beat up second-hand Yugo, or spend a fortune on a Ferrari. Even at the low end it wasn't exactly chump change, but if you needed a sword, chances are you could at least afford one with a little effort. But polearms were the major weapons of war, anyhow. :D
Click to expand...
 
Pikes, bow and arrow, rocks of various size and means of being chucked, war dogs, fire, thirst, hunger and disease....lots of alternate weapons that outnumbered swords in medieval warfare. Plenty of choices for bifurcating your enemies one way or another.
 
war dogs
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After raising English mastiffs for the last twenty some years I have a real respect for what a battalion of war dogs let loose ahead of the main body could do to even well trained light infantry, or footmen from a large fast moving group of 180 to 220 lb male mastiffs. They would absolutely terrorize and scatter the pack animals behind the army if unprotected by their own dogs as the Romans did.

And I use my mastiff as a foot warmer or an extra blanket on cold nights. :o

Joe
 
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