Would a manufacturer build inferior lookalikes of a model knife just to sell as a cheap special?

[KHarper]

I'm just curious if, for a true example, Schrade would make two different versions of their "Sharpfinger" knife, one version of better metal and handle material (although still inferior to the old USA-made version), which is sold in normal stores in the normal way, and a second lookalike version with inferior metal and handle materials which could be sold as part of a Gift Package 3-pack along with two Schrade pocket knives. I got such a pack for Christmas, and I'm curious if this is the same Sharpfinger I'd get for $25-$30 if I went into a store and bought it by itself, or if this is just a cheap piece of crap they knocked together to sell to foolish people looking for gifts for people for Christmas? The MSRP of the whole 3 pack is around or less than the usual price of the Sharpfinger alone. It's possible they sell at very little profit (especially since the 2 pocket knives are terrible in fit and finish, although surprsingly will take an edge and can actually be used after a fashion). The Sharpfinger sharpens up nice, but if I could get a version that felt a little more solid and didn't have hard plastic handles, I'd buy it and toss this gift-pack one.

 

[danbot]

I wouldn't expect anything good from Schrade anymore. The current owners only bought the company for it's name and they have done a fine job of driving it into the dirt imo.

 

[cbach8tw]

The reputable manufacturers no, fly by night or less known ones, maybe. And notice I say cheap Chinese ones, definitely.

 

[Swoop03]

My answer would be yes. Look at spyderco in an indirect sort of comparison. Not necessarily a knock off for a cheap sale but the Byrd line of knives are cheaper versions of spydercos. Not a copy per say but one cant argue it's a spyderco design. Meant for a cheaper blade, possibly entry level if you will. Not everyone would want to spend over 1 or 2 hundred dollars on a knife but 30 or 40 is just fine. I have also seen companies do just what you are referring to though. They have product A for 50 bucks and then sell product "a" and I believe it is for gifting purpose or a quick sale. "A" Gets a good rep among some people so they make "a" for half the price and sell twice as many. Maybe to simply increase sales, or take unaware peoples money, or to just be shady I dont know. I'm sure every company has a rhyme and reason but it's bad business if you ask me but it's not just knife companies that do this. I have seen it many a places. Just make a good product, if it doesn't sell then it's not the right time or right audience. Try again, its business. From a business point of view I get it, I still dont like it though.

 

[Rich S]

Yes, Kershaw makes a lower quality line exclusively for Walmart around Xmas time. They even mention it on their website. It is not part of their regular line, so I guess it's not the same as a cheap version of their normal line. Should add that all the model numbers end in WM, so Kershaw is not trying to fool anyone.
Rich

 

[Bad Ninja]

Yup.
See: Buck Canoe at Walmart.
Made in China.
Still not a bad knife.

 

[cbach8tw]

I think there is a difference between a budget line of knives to catch the lower cost market segment, and just plain cheap knives that can be sold at gas stations and flea markets, like 6 knives for $5 sort of thing. Those cheap ones are made to sell by dozen, cheaper by the dozen if you will, and will fall apart on the first use. The budget lines might be a little better quality, and catch the average buyer in Wally World. Some are decent quality, good users for average money. This debate has been discussed a lot here in the forums. There is a difference cheap knives and inexpensive knives, not a lot, but enough. For my example only, Mora vs the new Schrade, after being sold a few times.

Maybe another example I have wondered about is The new Marbles, I see their products for inexpensive in a catalog, my first impression is not good, but are they considered cheap. Ow or inexpensive users?

 

[Sonnydaze]

Of course it's done. Look at Massdrop's Chinese Ferrum Forge or Keen Laconico offers, in addition to many other models. The knives are designed by one of "our" greats but produced in China. I've had two of the MD Keen Laconicos, in S35VN steel, and carry one clipped; the other went to my son. It's a great knife, honestly, or I wouldn't be carrying it this long to try it out. For $140, it's darned near impossible to beat. The Chinese have come a long way in this field.
There is no way that I could afford a "real" Laconico, but I have to say that this one is honest-to-gosh terrific.

 

[cbach8tw]

A good example of decent quality knives are some of the ones offered by AG Russell. I do not know enough of the other recent Chinese makes, WE! REate, Kizer, etc, but the quality is good if kept under watch.

 

[Danke42]

I'm just curious if, for a true example, Schrade would make two different versions of their "Sharpfinger" knife, one version of better metal and handle material (although still inferior to the old USA-made version), which is sold in normal stores in the normal way, and a second lookalike version with inferior metal and handle materials which could be sold as part of a Gift Package 3-pack along with two Schrade pocket knives. I got such a pack for Christmas, and I'm curious if this is the same Sharpfinger I'd get for $25-$30 if I went into a store and bought it by itself, or if this is just a cheap piece of crap they knocked together to sell to foolish people looking for gifts for people for Christmas? The MSRP of the whole 3 pack is around or less than the usual price of the Sharpfinger alone. It's possible they sell at very little profit (especially since the 2 pocket knives are terrible in fit and finish, although surprsingly will take an edge and can actually be used after a fashion). The Sharpfinger sharpens up nice, but if I could get a version that felt a little more solid and didn't have hard plastic handles, I'd buy it and toss this gift-pack one.

For sure. Here's how it works.

The store tells the vendor what they want. Depending on the store it can be somewhat vague down to exact spec; they could say "make it look christmassy and leave it at that down to 3 knives in a bubble pack with red and green backing that cost us 9.07 that we will sell for 24.99

Big places like Walmart, Costco, and the like have whole divisions of staff that work on those type of special orders every day.

And of course they do that with everything sold in the store; not just the knives.

 

[NapalmCheese]

Yup.
See: Buck Canoe at Walmart.
Made in China.
Still not a bad knife.

First, buck produces a number of their traditional knives in China, this is not exclusive to Wal-Mart, is not hidden, and is very well known.

Next, There are a couple of Buck employees who post in the Buck forum on this website who have unequivocally said they DO NOT produce any 'second tier' knives for any market.

The knives you see from Buck at Wal-Mart are the exact same specs and QC you see anywhere else. Essentially Wal-Mart guarantees they'll buy N million Buck 110s if Buck will sell them to Wal-Mart for X dollars/unit (which is less than their general wholesale cost). Buck looks at the numbers and realizes that they can a) use a less expensive sheath b) use less expensive packaging and c) with a guaranteed sale of N units they can reduce their margin slightly and still garner a larger profit than if they didn't make that sale at all.

The knives come off the same assembly line, assembled by the same people, with the same components. There might be some cosmetic exclusives, the stamping/moulding on the handle, a certain color, etc.; but the knife blades, construction, heat treat, and materials are the same. Basically, it doesn't make sense for a company like Buck to water down their good name with an inferior product in an effort to hit price point when they can achieve that price point through volume of sales.

As for Schrade... Schrade makes some very good knives, and Schrade makes some pretty mediocre knives. I wouldn't think they would produce a second rate sharp finger just for their trio pack. I can't imagine they'd save that much going from 7cr to 3cr just for the trio pack knives.

 

[Bad Ninja]

First, buck produces a number of their traditional knives in China, this is not exclusive to Wal-Mart, is not hidden, and is very well known.

Next, There are a couple of Buck employees who post in the Buck forum on this website who have unequivocally said they DO NOT produce any 'second tier' knives for any market.

The knives you see from Buck at Wal-Mart are the exact same specs and QC you see anywhere else. Essentially Wal-Mart guarantees they'll buy N million Buck 110s if Buck will sell them to Wal-Mart for X dollars/unit (which is less than their general wholesale cost). Buck looks at the numbers and realizes that they can a) use a less expensive sheath b) use less expensive packaging and c) with a guaranteed sale of N units they can reduce their margin slightly and still garner a larger profit than if they didn't make that sale at all.

The knives come off the same assembly line, assembled by the same people, with the same components. There might be some cosmetic exclusives, the stamping/moulding on the handle, a certain color, etc.; but the knife blades, construction, heat treat, and materials are the same. Basically, it doesn't make sense for a company like Buck to water down their good name with an inferior product in an effort to hit price point when they can achieve that price point through volume of sales.

As for Schrade... Schrade makes some very good knives, and Schrade makes some pretty mediocre knives. I wouldn't think they would produce a second rate sharp finger just for their trio pack. I can't imagine they'd save that much going from 7cr to 3cr just for the trio pack knives.

I missed your point.

Yes, Buck has low end knives made in China.
It's because Buck needs to meet Walmarts price point, and Walmart buys a huge ammout of product from Buck. Probably magnitudes more than any other reseller.

Stop being defensive.
It's not a slight on Buck, but it is a fact.

I own and sometimes carry a Chinese Buck Canoe.
It's a good knife for the price, but not a top end knife.

Fit and finish isn't as good as my US made Bucks.

I won't own a new Schrade, but I do have several from the 80's.

 

[NapalmCheese]

I missed your point.

Yes you did.

Yes, Buck has low end knives made in China.
It's because Buck needs to meet Walmarts price point, and Walmart buys a huge ammout of product from Buck.

Buck does not have products made in China to meet Wal-Mart's price demands. (that's the part of the point you missed). Buck does change the packaging and sheath material to meet those price demands (that's the another part of the point that you missed). Buck doesn't make copies of its USA made knives in China to hit a price point (which is more in line with the question asked by the OP).

Probably magnitudes more than any other reseller.

Stop being defensive.

Just telling you the facts based on your erroneous example/answer to the OP's question. I'm not being defensive, but if you don't believe what I'm saying just ask over in the Buck forum.

It's not a slight on Buck, but it is a fact.

That Buck makes knives in China to 'meet Walmarts price point' [sic]? That is conjecture.

Buck chose to offshore most of their slipjoints because they wanted to hit a low price point overall, not because Wal-Mart demanded it, and not as copies of knives they produce in the USA. Bucks that are made in China are only made in China, bucks that are made in the USA are only made in the USA. Buck doesn't produce a less expensive copy of anything they make to hit a retailers asked for selling price. The Buck 110 you buy at Wal-Mart is the same Buck 110 you can buy from their website with perhaps differences in packaging and sheaths.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Buck does not have products made in China to meet Wal-Mart's price demands. (that's the part of the point you missed). Buck does change the packaging and sheath material to meet those price demands (that's the another part of the point that you missed). Buck doesn't make copies of its USA made knives in China to hit a price point (which is more in line with the question asked by the OP).


Just telling you the facts based on your erroneous example/answer to the OP's question. I'm not being defensive, but if you don't believe what I'm saying just ask over in the Buck forum.

That Buck makes knives in China to 'meet Walmarts price point' [sic]? That is conjecture.

Buck chose to offshore most of their slipjoints because they wanted to hit a low price point

That is exactly what I said.
Walmart accounts for a HUGE percentage of Bucks sales.
I've seen estimates of up to 40%
It's not a slight against Buck.
It's just business, and smart on their part.
It's not because of China's reputation for quality, it's because manufacturing labor is dirt cheap, and yes, it is to meet Walmart's price point.

Buck still makes several slipjoints in the US but they aren't $17 or sold at Wal-Mart.

Buck 110 you buy at Wal-Mart is the same Buck 110 you can buy from their website with perhaps differences in packaging and sheaths.

I said Canoe, not 110.

 

[NapalmCheese]

That is exactly what I said.
Walmart accounts for a HUGE percentage of Bucks sales.
I've seen estimates of up to 40%
It's not a slight against Buck.
It's just business, and smart on their part.
It's not because of China's reputation for quality, it's because manufacturing labor is dirt cheap, and yes, it is to meet Walmart's price point.

Buck still makes several slipjoints in the US but they aren't $17 or sold at Wal-Mart.




I said Canoe, not 110.

The original question was (to paraphrase) "would a manufacturer make an inexpensive lower cost/quality copy of one of their knives for something like a special sale?". To which you answered "yes" and gave the canoe as an example.

Now, show me where Buck is making a newly manufactured USA made canoe knife for which your China made canoe knife is a lower cost/quality copy?

Buck doesn't make lower cost/quality copies of its own knives to hit any price point in any market. I gave the 110 as an example because it is available at a lower cost at Wal-Mart than at other retailers and people commonly believe it is a lower cost/quality version of that model. It is not because, once again, Buck doesn't make lower cost and lower quality copies of any of their knives for any market.

Your China made canoe knife is the only canoe knife Buck sells. It is not a lower cost copy of a higher quality canoe knife intended to be sold specifically at Wal-Mart. It is part of a line of knives intended to be low cost to be sold at any number of retailers. Wal-Mart did not demand that Buck produce a low cost Chinese made canoe knife; Buck decided that a low cost Chinese made canoe knife would be profitable on retail shelves and Wal-Mart sells them.

 

[NoF]

The Buck 110 you buy at Wal-Mart is the same Buck 110 you can buy from their website with perhaps differences in packaging and sheaths.

Just a point of interest, based on a thread in the Buck sub-forum. The 110 LT sold in Walmart actually has a different mold for its handle compared to the 110 LTs offered elsewhere. It's still made in the US, same specs and materials, but cosmetically different.

 

[KHarper]

Buck doesn't make lower cost/quality copies of its own knives to hit any price point in any market. I gave the 110 as an example because it is available at a lower cost at Wal-Mart than at other retailers and people commonly believe it is a lower cost/quality version of that model. It is not because, once again, Buck doesn't make lower cost and lower quality copies of any of their knives for any market.

Your China made canoe knife is the only canoe knife Buck sells. It is not a lower cost copy of a higher quality canoe knife intended to be sold specifically at Wal-Mart. It is part of a line of knives intended to be low cost to be sold at any number of retailers. Wal-Mart did not demand that Buck produce a low cost Chinese made canoe knife; Buck decided that a low cost Chinese made canoe knife would be profitable on retail shelves and Wal-Mart sells them.

I did wonder about that as well when I saw the same Buck 110's going for $50-$70 elsewhere that I bought at Walmart for $35. But then I decided that if what I had WAS some "inferior copy", it was plenty good enough for me. Very sharp, well put together. 420HC is plenty good enough for my purposes. The blade snaps open like a bank vault locking, ad real sound mechanical "SNAP", and a totally firm lockup. What's interesting is that my Walmart 110 came with a good leather sheath, where others have claimed all Walmart 110s come with nylon. Perhaps that's just that ugly plastic-handled version? It also came in a normal yellow cardboard Buck box; I don't know what their really expensive knives come in, but it's the same box a $100 Buck 119 Special comes in. So as far as the 110 goes, I don't know where they make their profit, other than by selling a huge volume, or even by using it as a price leader (selling it at cost or even a loss as a way to lure customers into the store). Interestingly I couldn't find a Buck 112 for less than $55, IIRC, and $70 seems to me the more normal price. Partly the low cost of 110s at Walmart (and in general) might just be because it is harder to find people willing to carry one. The 112 is just a much more convenient size and weight for most people.
I asked about the Schrade in particular though because when I look at the versions under glass, they DO seem to be of better quality (although still cheap), at least in handle material. The other two knives in the pack were sold as an "Old Timer Stockman" and a regular Old Timer 2-blade slipjoint penknife. I looked at them and thought "this cannot possibly the normal build quality of these knives!" Thin, flimsy blades that bear visible machining marks, machining marks all around the stacked brass of the frame, rough pins, hard plastic handles, and the blades are actually BENT to make them all fit together. Maybe that's normal, but it seems really cheap to me. Although to be honest I bought a tiny little Buck penknife instead....and although the blades are nice and shiny and straight, they are also looser and more flimsy than the Old Timer. So for now the OT penknife is the one that I carry every day, now that I stopped carrying my grandfathers old Boker penknife since I was afraid I'd loose it eventually (which is incidentally a superb knife of excellent build and metallurgy; maybe I was just spoiled and expecting too much).

Oh, and Kershaws. I ended up with a 4-pack of Kershaw Walmart knives, and they were better than I expected. The biggest was a spring-loaded blade, they are all four very sharp and aren't noticeably worse in quality than a typical entry-level Kershaw. One 3.5in spring-loaded blade, semi sheesfoot/drop-point blade(?) with flipper and a 2.5" drop point stonewash with a long, slender blade and handle, also a flipper, no spring. And two utility frame-locks with 2 or 1.5" clip-point blades and nail-nicks. All for $25; not top-tier at all, but I have no complaints about build quality at any rate. But I'm no steel connoisseur either; I've carried $30 knives for years without noticing any particular difference between them and the $70 knives I've had at other times. Anyway, Kershaw and Buck both seem to manage to make knives "at Walmart's price point" without suffering unduly, but the three Schrades I've got so far have been pretty terrible in terms of general construction (but functional enough), and I'd hate to think they were all that bad.
I know it's not something that people like to hear, but the Chinese are perfectly capable of building high-quality items; you just don't see them very often because that's not what companies go to China for. US companies go there looking for the cheapest product they can get, and if they specify a POS, they'll get a POS. If they don't want to invest in quality tooling and materials, the Chinese labor will build them the crap they want, because that will sell. Remember, most of the cheap "Made in China" crap you see is actually sold by American companies...or it was until they were bought out. If you give the Chinese the money for a nice factory, or you are willing to pay them high enough price per unit, they can make stuff as well as any typical American factory. Mostly this involves running machines anyway, so it's not like there is some inherent American craftsmanship missing here. An American worker loads raw materials into a machine pretty much like a Chinese or Taiwanese worker.
But if you ARE willing to spend more on your product, then many companies decide they might as well go all the way and just stay in the US for the added sales incentive the "Made in the US" label gives. It's a form of investment. But there are also plenty of those who invest in decent tooling and materials in China and import merch that is perfectly fine in quality, just lacking the "Made in US" cachet people like.
This is all terribly unfortunate and I certainly wish the manufacturers would just stay home, but it's the free market, and they can build the same quality for cheaper. I don't blame them, and it doesn't ever pay to underestimate China. We will have trouble with them long before we do with Russia!

 

[thebrain]

Buck has stated that it did indeed make knives in China to meet price demands. I am pretty sure that is or soon will be a thing of the past. I noticed a difference in an 80's model Buck 110 vs a new Walmart model 110 but I am 100% sure that was due to date of manufacture and nothing to do with place of purchase. Kershaw makes budget models for Walmart that are rarely seen at other retailers but nothing like a crappy version of a standard model. See the Walmart exclusive version of the packlite line made overseas for Walmart only and you can pretty quickly tell why that is a bad plan.

 

[NapalmCheese]

I did wonder about that as well when I saw the same Buck 110's going for $50-$70 elsewhere that I bought at Walmart for $35. But then I decided that if what I had WAS some "inferior copy", it was plenty good enough for me. Very sharp, well put together. 420HC is plenty good enough for my purposes. The blade snaps open like a bank vault locking, ad real sound mechanical "SNAP", and a totally firm lockup. What's interesting is that my Walmart 110 came with a good leather sheath, where others have claimed all Walmart 110s come with nylon. Perhaps that's just that ugly plastic-handled version? It also came in a normal yellow cardboard Buck box; I don't know what their really expensive knives come in, but it's the same box a $100 Buck 119 Special comes in. So as far as the 110 goes, I don't know where they make their profit, other than by selling a huge volume, or even by using it as a price leader (selling it at cost or even a loss as a way to lure customers into the store).

I bought a 119 from Wal-Mart with a leather sheath, I was surprised as I was expecting nylon (it came in a clam pack though). I guess that with guaranteed purchases of millions of units or whatever you can run a pretty slim margin. Sheaths used to be made in Mexico, but I think they are bringing them back to the US. Similarly I think they are bringing their traditional slipjoints back to the US as well.

As for being a 'loss leader', I seem to recall that over in the Buck sub Buck has said they don't lose money on anything.

Schrade... I don't know if they make anything that would qualify as 'high quality', but they do make a number of knives out of good materials with good heat treats (think 1095) with a fit and finish commensurate with their price tag. I think they manufacture in both Taiwan and China. I recently bought a 3.5 inch fixed blade Schrade in 1095 (SCHF55) that was worth every cent (and more) I spent on it.

 

[KHarper]

I bought a 119 from Wal-Mart with a leather sheath, I was surprised as I was expecting nylon (it came in a clam pack though). I guess that with guaranteed purchases of millions of units or whatever you can run a pretty slim margin. Sheaths used to be made in Mexico, but I think they are bringing them back to the US. Similarly I think they are bringing their traditional slipjoints back to the US as well.

As for being a 'loss leader', I seem to recall that over in the Buck sub Buck has said they don't lose money on anything.

Schrade... I don't know if they make anything that would qualify as 'high quality', but they do make a number of knives out of good materials with good heat treats (think 1095) with a fit and finish commensurate with their price tag. I think they manufacture in both Taiwan and China. I recently bought a 3.5 inch fixed blade Schrade in 1095 (SCHF55) that was worth every cent (and more) I spent on it.

Maybe there's a different term, but to me "loss leader" doesn't always imply selling at a literal net loss. That was just the origin of the term. In any case, what I was thinking includes selling at very little profit margin, with the hopes of getting your money back with the other items the customer buys once you get him/her in the store, or just because the customer is more likely to come back when they think "Wal-mart: that's where I got that great deal on that nice Buck 110 that time; I wonder what else I could get a deal on this time". It works too! In any case, it wouldn't Buck that was selling at a loss here, it would be Walmart. WM buys millions of 110s at a contract price, Buck sells them at a low profit margin because they are thrilled to be getting $.05 each on ten million knives (for example). As long as expenses are being met (and product image isn't being degraded too badly) it's worth doing it. Now, Walmart has ten million Buck 110s (in installments), and are free to sell them at whatever price they want' Back is making their profit no matter what. WM has teams of market analysts and scientists who work on this stuff, and someone decided it was best to sell the 110 at very little profot, for the additinal benefits this brings in. There are many, many products which could be sold for far less than they are without actually LOOSING money. Plenty of higher end products are merely fixed at a high proce BECAUSE that inflates the desirability of the product. A BMW costs twice what a Toyota costs: it doesn't cost twice as much to build one (granted sales volumes play a part as well here). I'm sure there are plenty of $300 knives that could be sold for $100 without LOOSING money....but the product markets best at $300. People LIKE having a knife they spent $300 for, it makes them feel like they have something very valuable. You could sell them the exact same knife for $100, and some people would feel like it wasn't as good because it only cost $100, not like a REAL nice knife that costs $300. There are those who value getting a good deal on a knife, paying half the money for essentially the same thing, but in most cases if a person HAS the money they will choose the more expensive one. Which is of course why many manufacturers DO essentially sell the same product for two different prices and only cosmetic/branding differences. The cheaper one for those who want decent quality but can't afford the bragging rights of paying $300, and a more expensive one that is basically the same for those who want to walk around knowing they got a fine, $300 knife in their pocket. Maybe the nicer one will even have better steel, or better decoration, or better heat treatment...but often the differences are pretty marginal, and even when they are, it's not enough to justify twice the price.
Sorry, went off on a tangent. And I don't pretend to know anything about the knife market per se, I was just using those as an example, because this is how it works in most industries.