Z wear PM

R

Rsq

Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
162
Hey all
Does anyone have any experience with this steel? from the description on AKS, it looks like it could be great. I have been planning a katana project for some time, and was planning to use CPM 3V, but Z wear claims better toughness AND wear resistance than 3V. Can anyone who has experience with Z wear PM tell me a little about it? does it hold up to its claims?
 
I'm not familiar with it, but it sure looks interesting. Z-wear datasheet. It appears to be basically CPM-3V with a bunch of added tungsten carbides.
 
According to z wear, zknives and simplytoolsteel, z wear should have more wear resistance AND more toughness than cpm 3v at the same hardness. It's also 20$ for a bar of the size i want, vs 280$ for a bar of cpm 3v. I'm just wondering if it isnt too good to be true. I'm asking if anyone here has any experience with it, since 3V is tried and true, and this stuff still only looks good on paper. I'm probably going to go with this anyway just because of the price difference, but any experiences would be greatly appreciated

And eric, it's common knowledge that zombies are highly abrasive. Need a better reason?
 
Last edited:
I've had some sitting and waiting to be tested for a while (like 3 years). I'm not sure how much help I'll be as I've yet to test it. I think 3v may be tougher at around 58 or 59 but once you hit 60 and above z wear should be tougher and should be noticeably more wear resistant. I'm not sure you'll notice the slight increase in toughness at higher hardness with normal use. And looking at the composition finishing it won't be much fun. I have been meaning to test this and the pd1 I got from Chuck. Both should make great blades. For a sword you could probably get away with a higher hardness than 3v if the hype lives up to reality. But until Someone tests it we may not know or may not even notice in difference between 3v aside from wear resistance. Maybe I'll send the test blades I have out to ht soon. I don't really see the difference in price. What z wear is listed at is similar to what I paid for 3v but maybe I'm missing something?
 
Well i got a quote for z wear directly from zapp, the 3v price was just from jantz's site. I also had hudson quote me an even higher price for 3v. I really hope they aren't marking it up that much...1400% profit is highway robbery
 
I was real excited when I first saw this earlier. I am less excited after further reflection.

Rsq said:
According to z wear, zknives and simplytoolsteel, z wear should have more wear resistance AND more toughness than cpm 3v at the same hardness.
Click to expand...

The datasheets from the respective manufacturers don't seem to indicate noticeably higher toughness than 3V at any normal knife hardness (58-62Rc). Looks like it's about the same at 58Rc, and much less than 3V at 60. A bit higher at 62... perhaps that's where the claims of "both" come from?

Who runs 3V at 62? Sure, it can be done, and that's no slouch, but there are several other steels better-suited for that hardness range.

I do understand the higher wear-resistance compared to 3V ( significant amount of added tungsten carbides ) but I don't see why it would be tougher than 3V. It still isn't in a class with CPM-M4 or Elmax for wear-resistance at any of those same hardness levels.

My clients who like really tough knives are plenty happy with 3V's edge-retention at 58 or 60Rc, in fact the only complaints I've gotten are that it's a little difficult to hone. The folks who want much more edge-retention aren't terribly concerned about maximum toughness.

What am I missing here?

Mind you, I'm only going by the datasheets. But I'm gonna need a lot more info before I'm willing to invest money on Z-wear being better for my knives than CPM-3V, or Elmax.
 
Last edited:
I sent you an email, RSQ.

On the blades made from 3V, i've got no complaints but pitting has been a killer especially after a weekend of trail-blazing.
For the weirdest reason after wiping the sap off, the pits still go on.
Once the blade exposed to vine sap it pits like crazy and after some hard scrubbing, you still see a lot of black dots, which in close are actually tiny pits.
I have been very generous with the oiling and i suggest a 3v blade should have coating or some sort to prolong the life of it.

Other than that, it's a very very sharp chopper of mine and plenty tough.

J. Rosa said:
I think 3v may be tougher at around 58 or 59 but once you hit 60 and above z wear should be tougher and should be noticeably more wear resistant. I'm not sure you'll notice the slight increase in toughness at higher hardness with normal use.
Click to expand...

Spot on Jim!
On Z-wear, what i read about is that you could run it to high 60 and still be tougher than 3V. AT that hardness, the toughness of 3V drops.
Z-Wear-PM-chart.jpg


I can't justify this until i get a Z-wear blade to test. Hopefully my V4E chopper is performing close to what the datasheet said.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the email, I'll shoot them a message and see what they can quote.

The most appealing difference I see is the price. All else seems quite close, so unless I can find 3V at that price, I'll likely go for z wear. The size I'm looking at is 36x4x.25, which costs a mint in 3v (283 on jantz, 500 from hudson, out of stock from aldo) but only about 20$ from zapp. Even if it isnt quite as tough as 3v at 59-61 rc (which is where i'll have peters' aim. I believe Dan Keffeler runs his 3V choppers up there), it should still be more than tough enough, I'd imagine. Plus, I'll be able to afford to make a test blade and let you know how it performs.

Yup, I just talked myself into z-wear.
 
You should also look at CTS-PD#1, Duane Dwyer said it was probably the best hard use steel right now.

Note tat he has been used himself almost every high-end steel from Cruwear, 3V, Z-Wear, M4, to the very exotic one like PSF27.
 
Last edited:
im one if the sickos that run 3v really hard but 62 is abot as hard as it gets even just out of quench and cryo. i like 3v at 60 for a chopper. i am workingon more testing on CTS PD1 at 62 (tempered back from 64 after cryo and first 400f temper ) had to run 500f to get to the 62rc

as for toughness when looking at PM steels you hav eto know what micron size they spec.ed for the final melt 3v is based on older tooling and larger powder sizes CTS PD1 (and im guessing Zware) are based on what they are calling 3rd gen tec and the finest powder available today mainstream. as is the case for small grain size adds to strength so does micro carbides and the added evenness through the alloy
 
Yeah. Get the zwear. I have no idea what gen zapps pm is or how it compares to pd1 but it should be similar regardless. Let us know how everything works out. Jay, about the pitting you can patina it, coat it, and maybe look into Butchs ht recipe for your next 3v blade. No promises but my understanding is the very low temper may in that department.
 
i overnight cryo and then temper at 400 for 61rc on 3v (plate quench from 2000f with 30 min soak)
on PD1 the same HT gets me 63rc and at 500f 62rc (to get softer i need to drop my quench from temp to 1950 and try all the testing again 400 450 and 500f tempers )

so far my chopper is doing well at 62rc
 
I feel silly. With final exams and projects, I didnt look closely at the quote. It was 19.xx/inch, whih comes out to the same price as cpm 3v...now that I look at it, i'm not sure how i missed it
 
I alerted Zapp to this thread and they said the were getting pounded with calls for zwear. I'm glad you cleared it up.
 
Yeah, I called them and talked to the sales manager. He said that they only have .290" right now but will be getting some .139" & .156" in March. The price is $17.71 per lb. + shipping. He sent me info. on some drops and the specs. on one was as follows. .290" x 1.75" x 41.687 and weighs 7 lbs. for a price of $123.97 + shipping. So lets say that you get t it for $150 delivered and make 3 choppers in the ~14" range, that would come to $50 per blade. Also, anything over .250" will be as rolled and anything under .250" will be blasted/descaled.
I think I'll wait until I see the results of some testing before I give it a go.
 
Interesting. I guess I'll finally send the test blade I have out in the next 2 weeks or so and see if Peters will do Butch's ht schedule. I'll send you a pm Darrin with any news if you're interested.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top