RyanW
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I just received an email from one of my material vendors about some new info regarding items containing Ivory... Summary: Preban ivory (Raw or finished product) cannot be sold across state lines, Ancient Ivory trade has not been affected.
Here is a recent thread on BladeForums discussing this topic: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1136526-U-S-Total-Ivory-Ban?highlight=Ivory+Ban
This is from their Site:
Ivory Ban February 11, 2014 - sales are still taking place as this has not yet been signed into place but this new regulation/law will be upon us in the very near future. Act accordingly.
Here is the new proposed regulation. There is no good solution to this or at least it looks that way: Ivory Ban February 11, 2014.
We have attempted to look at this in an orderly and logical fashion weighing all the options. Looking at this logically, the opposition is well organized, funded, has a huge lobby and international support.
The pro ivory lobby (which doesn’t exist) consists of no money, no friends in Washington and the 'Merry Wayne Patriots' (a band of cue makers in denial led by Thomas Wayne in Alaska who is better at shoveling snow than the crap he's trying to shovel with this issue). Put that against an Obama administration, a President who has a pen and a phone, health care rammed down our throats, a President who flew to California on 2/14/14 to pitch a 1 Billion dollar climate change ‘resilience fund’ in California amidst some of the coldest weather conditions throughout the USA to talk about climate change and you have your answer.
Yes, we see a strong possibility of working with and coming to a mutual, satisfactory and globally acceptable resolution. Yes, and we’ll see that the moment we see pigs flying.
Please don't get us wrong. We hope the regulation is reversed but it is our responsibility to advise all our clients and friends of the impending changes to the way we will all be doing business. We cannot hide from this fact. We cannot have message boards delete the truth. We cannot hide under our beds and hope it doesn't happen. And lastly, it's important that everyone knows what is going to happen to their ivory clientele, those holding valuable collections and those of us involved in the sale of legal pre ban ivory to artisans. This affects all of us in a detrimental manner and we need to get the word out to minimize any potential losses.
So what will ivory be worth? Your guess is as good as ours. However, we don't see a bright future. How can there be when the proposed regulation restricts anyone owning pre ban ivory from selling it across state lines. That eliminates 98% of the rest of your sales market within the USA. Obama is intending for all ivory to be worthless and therefore curtailing any demand whatsoever. He hasn't done a good job with anything but he sure is with this proposed regulation.
Will owning ivory objects be of any value? It's hard to say but we are sure there will be a market but it is going to be a wait and see market. Time will tell. Who wants to own ivory objects that are so restricted? More importantly than 'who' is why would you want to own something so restrictive? If you can answer 'the why' then you'll have the answer to the future worth of pre ban ivory.
Should I stash ivory? Why? To sell a restricted product within only one state? Do you see a huge demand in that state? If you think that an ivory object that now sells for $15 will command $200 within your state, then go for it. For all we know it very well may but we're not counting on it.
What are we doing? We can sum it up in one word - liquidating (ivory only). We do not want to own any pre ban ivory. The laws will be so restrictive that it will make it a nightmare keeping track of it all. Assuming it goes intrastate (commerce within ones own state) sellers will have to make sure every person they sell to resides within their own state. And, should any client get investigated for smuggling it out of any state, the innocent sellers certainly don't need the Feds looking down their throats even if they did sell it legally. Who needs that aggravation! Do you see where and why we're going with our decision. We don't want to be on the wrong side of history or the wrong side of the issue. Thinking that pre ban ivory sales will go on as usual after this fiasco, you need to get your head examined. Regardless what happens, pre ban ivory has a large black cloud hanging over it because of the current issue.
Regulation and Verification: Heaven only knows what documentation the Feds will require of anyone selling what is termed pre ban ivory. One thing is certain. If the Feds require it, guaranteed it will be 34 pages of documentation no one can satisfy.
We are not advocating doom and gloom but we are realists. The opposition has been mounting for decades and their time has come, the right time, the right political climate and with huge international support. Do you think Obama ordered the crushing of 6,000 lbs of confiscated ivory for everyone’s amusement?
Just in case anyone thinks the USA is not serious about enforcing their new regulations... we now have the lab to do it.
For all we know this can be part of Obama's jobs plan to create more federal jobs enforcing his new ivory regulations. Sounds far fetched but with the current administration, do you know which way is up?
By closing down its domestic ivory market, the United States helps the world tighten the noose on the illegal ivory trade. Other countries will follow.
So, you're still wondering how serious the USA Government is about this new regulation and do you think anyone is going to change it?
This new regulation has Obama's blessing and if anyone thinks they're going to change it, God bless them and good luck.
And lastly, does anyone think they're going to fight this: Wildlife Summit.
Do you think that anyone reading this can fight this fight against, the United States government, Obama, UK government, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cambridge, officials from around 50 countries, UK foreign secretary, William Hague, Prince William, Prince Charles, environment minister Lord de Mauley, prime minister David Cameron, African heads of state, from Chad, Gabon, Botswana and Tanzania, UK promised $16 million dollars to combat the ivory and rhino horn trade, naturalist Bill Oddie, Jackie Chan and former Chinese basketball star Yao Ming launching video's and just about every tree-hugger in the world plus the WWF and every other conservation and wilflife fund - you are absolutely MAD.
If you take exception to our scenario, that's fine as we all have our opinions. We believe it's over (+-). The best case is they will ban interstate ivory commerce and probably leave intrastate commerce with documentation, etc. I don't know how any products can survive demand and value when you eliminate 98% of the rest of the USA not to mention the hassle to own the damn thing in the first place whether it's a cue, knife handle, guitar, gun, or selling ivory parts to artisans.
We don't have all the answers but we do know that a new law or regulation will be passed and it will not be good no matter how it is passed. Absolutely no good can come from all this. What politician is a friend to pre ban ivory? More importantly what politician will stick their neck out in support of all the artisans, collectors and dealers livelihoods? The answer can be summed up in three words - not one politician.
Legally speaking, property rights come into play here. It's a strong challenge but regardless of the legalities of ownership, etc, it will be a more heavily regulated product regardless who challenges it and on what basis it is challenged. Make no mistake about that.
The world believes that selling pre ban ivory is nonsense and just a cover for selling illegally trafficked ivory. Legal or illegal, pre ban or not, they believe it's all the same. The opposition has rallied behind a poor, defenseless, loving and beautiful creature, namely the elephant. The public believes that ivory in any object is killing these beautiful creatures and therefore it must be stopped. We can go on and on and on. You cannot argue pro-ivory, pre ban ivory anymore.
Let's look at the bright side. The new regulations get enacted and opposition musters up $10 million, $20 million in legal defense. They fight for 2-3 years and they win. They won't get the regulation repealed but they may have it amended and.... with this dark cloud hanging over ivory for three years do you honestly think people will want to buy and sell the stuff after they fought and won?
Reality, in our humble opinion, it's over.
This has been our opinion. Who are we? We are one of if not the largest pre ban ivory tusk dealers in the USA buying and selling pre ban tusks to investors and collectors within the USA. We also talk to all artisans, gun makers, knife makers, instrument makers, cue makers and we also get the hate mail that goes along with the territory. The world view and the general consensus is that all ivory should be banned and you can no longer rationalize it nor defend it regardless of the pre ban truth. No one wants to hear it. It’s an unpopular side to be on and the opponents of ivory are on the right side of the issue and history.
Here is a recent thread on BladeForums discussing this topic: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1136526-U-S-Total-Ivory-Ban?highlight=Ivory+Ban
This is from their Site:
Ivory Ban February 11, 2014 - sales are still taking place as this has not yet been signed into place but this new regulation/law will be upon us in the very near future. Act accordingly.
Here is the new proposed regulation. There is no good solution to this or at least it looks that way: Ivory Ban February 11, 2014.
We have attempted to look at this in an orderly and logical fashion weighing all the options. Looking at this logically, the opposition is well organized, funded, has a huge lobby and international support.
The pro ivory lobby (which doesn’t exist) consists of no money, no friends in Washington and the 'Merry Wayne Patriots' (a band of cue makers in denial led by Thomas Wayne in Alaska who is better at shoveling snow than the crap he's trying to shovel with this issue). Put that against an Obama administration, a President who has a pen and a phone, health care rammed down our throats, a President who flew to California on 2/14/14 to pitch a 1 Billion dollar climate change ‘resilience fund’ in California amidst some of the coldest weather conditions throughout the USA to talk about climate change and you have your answer.
Yes, we see a strong possibility of working with and coming to a mutual, satisfactory and globally acceptable resolution. Yes, and we’ll see that the moment we see pigs flying.
Please don't get us wrong. We hope the regulation is reversed but it is our responsibility to advise all our clients and friends of the impending changes to the way we will all be doing business. We cannot hide from this fact. We cannot have message boards delete the truth. We cannot hide under our beds and hope it doesn't happen. And lastly, it's important that everyone knows what is going to happen to their ivory clientele, those holding valuable collections and those of us involved in the sale of legal pre ban ivory to artisans. This affects all of us in a detrimental manner and we need to get the word out to minimize any potential losses.
So what will ivory be worth? Your guess is as good as ours. However, we don't see a bright future. How can there be when the proposed regulation restricts anyone owning pre ban ivory from selling it across state lines. That eliminates 98% of the rest of your sales market within the USA. Obama is intending for all ivory to be worthless and therefore curtailing any demand whatsoever. He hasn't done a good job with anything but he sure is with this proposed regulation.
Will owning ivory objects be of any value? It's hard to say but we are sure there will be a market but it is going to be a wait and see market. Time will tell. Who wants to own ivory objects that are so restricted? More importantly than 'who' is why would you want to own something so restrictive? If you can answer 'the why' then you'll have the answer to the future worth of pre ban ivory.
Should I stash ivory? Why? To sell a restricted product within only one state? Do you see a huge demand in that state? If you think that an ivory object that now sells for $15 will command $200 within your state, then go for it. For all we know it very well may but we're not counting on it.
What are we doing? We can sum it up in one word - liquidating (ivory only). We do not want to own any pre ban ivory. The laws will be so restrictive that it will make it a nightmare keeping track of it all. Assuming it goes intrastate (commerce within ones own state) sellers will have to make sure every person they sell to resides within their own state. And, should any client get investigated for smuggling it out of any state, the innocent sellers certainly don't need the Feds looking down their throats even if they did sell it legally. Who needs that aggravation! Do you see where and why we're going with our decision. We don't want to be on the wrong side of history or the wrong side of the issue. Thinking that pre ban ivory sales will go on as usual after this fiasco, you need to get your head examined. Regardless what happens, pre ban ivory has a large black cloud hanging over it because of the current issue.
Regulation and Verification: Heaven only knows what documentation the Feds will require of anyone selling what is termed pre ban ivory. One thing is certain. If the Feds require it, guaranteed it will be 34 pages of documentation no one can satisfy.
We are not advocating doom and gloom but we are realists. The opposition has been mounting for decades and their time has come, the right time, the right political climate and with huge international support. Do you think Obama ordered the crushing of 6,000 lbs of confiscated ivory for everyone’s amusement?
Just in case anyone thinks the USA is not serious about enforcing their new regulations... we now have the lab to do it.
For all we know this can be part of Obama's jobs plan to create more federal jobs enforcing his new ivory regulations. Sounds far fetched but with the current administration, do you know which way is up?
By closing down its domestic ivory market, the United States helps the world tighten the noose on the illegal ivory trade. Other countries will follow.
So, you're still wondering how serious the USA Government is about this new regulation and do you think anyone is going to change it?
This new regulation has Obama's blessing and if anyone thinks they're going to change it, God bless them and good luck.
And lastly, does anyone think they're going to fight this: Wildlife Summit.
Do you think that anyone reading this can fight this fight against, the United States government, Obama, UK government, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cambridge, officials from around 50 countries, UK foreign secretary, William Hague, Prince William, Prince Charles, environment minister Lord de Mauley, prime minister David Cameron, African heads of state, from Chad, Gabon, Botswana and Tanzania, UK promised $16 million dollars to combat the ivory and rhino horn trade, naturalist Bill Oddie, Jackie Chan and former Chinese basketball star Yao Ming launching video's and just about every tree-hugger in the world plus the WWF and every other conservation and wilflife fund - you are absolutely MAD.
If you take exception to our scenario, that's fine as we all have our opinions. We believe it's over (+-). The best case is they will ban interstate ivory commerce and probably leave intrastate commerce with documentation, etc. I don't know how any products can survive demand and value when you eliminate 98% of the rest of the USA not to mention the hassle to own the damn thing in the first place whether it's a cue, knife handle, guitar, gun, or selling ivory parts to artisans.
We don't have all the answers but we do know that a new law or regulation will be passed and it will not be good no matter how it is passed. Absolutely no good can come from all this. What politician is a friend to pre ban ivory? More importantly what politician will stick their neck out in support of all the artisans, collectors and dealers livelihoods? The answer can be summed up in three words - not one politician.
Legally speaking, property rights come into play here. It's a strong challenge but regardless of the legalities of ownership, etc, it will be a more heavily regulated product regardless who challenges it and on what basis it is challenged. Make no mistake about that.
The world believes that selling pre ban ivory is nonsense and just a cover for selling illegally trafficked ivory. Legal or illegal, pre ban or not, they believe it's all the same. The opposition has rallied behind a poor, defenseless, loving and beautiful creature, namely the elephant. The public believes that ivory in any object is killing these beautiful creatures and therefore it must be stopped. We can go on and on and on. You cannot argue pro-ivory, pre ban ivory anymore.
Let's look at the bright side. The new regulations get enacted and opposition musters up $10 million, $20 million in legal defense. They fight for 2-3 years and they win. They won't get the regulation repealed but they may have it amended and.... with this dark cloud hanging over ivory for three years do you honestly think people will want to buy and sell the stuff after they fought and won?
Reality, in our humble opinion, it's over.
This has been our opinion. Who are we? We are one of if not the largest pre ban ivory tusk dealers in the USA buying and selling pre ban tusks to investors and collectors within the USA. We also talk to all artisans, gun makers, knife makers, instrument makers, cue makers and we also get the hate mail that goes along with the territory. The world view and the general consensus is that all ivory should be banned and you can no longer rationalize it nor defend it regardless of the pre ban truth. No one wants to hear it. It’s an unpopular side to be on and the opponents of ivory are on the right side of the issue and history.
