Destructive Knife Steel Testing . . .

bladefiend1 said:
Hi, first of all I wish you success in your tests Mr Busse, and greatly appreciate that this thread was opened for replies and feedback. I have also been wondering what you intend to do if the results of your tests on infi's durability in knife making applications reveal it to be a fair bit lower than that of modern toughness oriented pm steels commonly used in the same applications. (As I unfortunately suspect may be the case). I was not aware until today just how long the
Infi = ≠ a8 mod debate had been going on, and that you had participated in it since at least 2006. Your comments in post #51 of this thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/whats-the-deal-with-busses-infi-steel.385855/page-3#post-3520503
Make me think that you would agree with what I have to say in my conclusion.
Specifically these parts 1:
"Larrin,
There are MANY steels that are within a few tenths of a percentage of another grade of steel and yet they have earned their own specific grade designation.
Looking at the composition of a steel and making statements about its edge holding and other performance characteristics is like reading a recipe and telling people how something is going to taste. . . it's pretty far out." Larrin does not directly address the claims on steel grade designations in this thread idk why it makes him look ignorant perhaps he wasn't as knowledgeable in 2006. He does however address a very similar point in this 2018 thread: post #53 (I will not quote it as it is very long.) Here is the link: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-composition-of-infi-and-what-it-means.1619871/page-3
Another claim you used to explain that infi ≠ a8 mod in the same thread was this:
"I don't really care what the composition of a steel is. . . I only care about its proven performance. So, with that in mind, could you please direct me to ANY "live" demonstration where anybody, anywhere at any time has come close to duplicating our performance???. . .or better yet, direct me to where someone has at least had the cajones to try?
Anybody. . . .anywhere. . . .at any time? " I think joex's video counts as a live demonstration where multiple blades have not only duplicated but surpassed (by a decent margin) Busse knives in terms durability and withstanding abuse.(I agree his tests do not control for many important variables, are not repeatable and leave much to be desired for gathering useful, accurate imperical evidence and info, so I am glad you are conducting your own.) I am also aware your quote was more so in reference to edge retention but I assumed it applies to every aspect of the performance of your knives. Perhaps I was wrong? In reference to edge retention Cedric ada outdoors made a vid where he does rope cut test with a busse knife (granted one with very thick blade and edge geometry the latter being more relevant to rope test) I watched it long ago so I am not 100% but I think he says it performs similar to 52100 knife with similar geo and a similar 3v knife would far outperform the Busse knife in his opinion(he is not a knife maker so take this with a grain of salt also it is by far my weakest point but it is pretty much all I know about infi edge retention) I could not find footage of live demonstration where infi makes 3000 rope cuts. Here is tldr: I think some of your claims about infi's superiority might have been true long ago, but are outdated in 2024 with whatever gen of pm metallurgy we are at. I think most of the points you have made in defense of infi's superiority have since received adequate rebuttals now the ball is in your park with one last chance to prove your claims are true (about infi).So my conclusion that I hope you agree is this: first make your tests as rigorous and thorough as possible, (so there is no question about their results) and within a reasonable time frame so that you are unaccusable stalling /waiting for the heat to die down, and if the results Cannot prove these claims on your site: ". INFI represents what we have always dreamed of in a knife steel. Tougher, by an enormous margin, than any other steel we've ever tested. It has unparalleled edge holding under high impact and in cutting tests, and shock resistance that begs you to "bring it on". Please take them down and issue some form of apology to your customers. Also perhaps revealing the composition of infi may be a good idea as to 90% of the public proprietary secrets that they as customers aren't allowed to know is a red flag. Would you like to buy a car with engine parts whose function that affects its reliability and may cause it to breakdown is hidden from you because it's a proprietary secret? How is it any different with knives?

Ps. Some of this may come of as arrogant or me trying to hurt your business which I assure you is not the case. All I want is for people to know what they are buying to insure they get what they want. Also steel is not even close to being most important aspect of knives and even if infi performs similar to a8 mod that still seems like a pretty decent steel just not the best. I would def still consider buying your knives for some of their other properties (of which their seems many) that set them apart from the competition. Also your quotes I used here are from 2006 I am sure you have come a long way since then as a knife maker (the whole industry has) and perhaps have already addressed some of the things I am saying or are willing to know. I def do not know all of the lore/history of the infi debate not even as it pertains to this forum so anyone is free to correct me.
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TLDR
 
Nathan. Your another rare bird and appreciate your transparency. You have created a world class knife company, and a lot of us here own your knives as well. Keep up the the great work. I’ll definitely be buying another big boy from you.
 
Dang Skippy no one does 3v better than Nathan!! That Delta 3V is legendary!!
Whenever asked about the best fixed blade knives I've always said, there's INFI & Delta 3V and then there's the rest..(I think maybe 2 people have actually wanted my opinion! 😆- but, I told em right!)
Those 2 are the Gold Standard.
 
Nismo17 said:
Nathan. Your another rare bird and appreciate your transparency. You have created a world class knife company, and a lot of us here own your knives as well. Keep up the the great work. I’ll definitely be buying another big boy from you.
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I don't own any of Nathan's knives, & that is something I'm hoping to change very soon. Like...🤔 ASAP. 🙂👍
Quite honestly, I don't know why I haven't picked any up yet... I remember Nathan's chop testing vidz here on BF from years back, his knives took all the testing he gave them, & so little edge damage (if any) from those cinder blocks. 🤙
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
People need to keep in mind when talking about grain size, they're not referring to the size of the carbides, they're talking about the steel grain. And the manufacturing process used to create the steel doesn't dictate grain size. That is more a function of the alloy and the heat condition. The PM process gives you finer alloy and carbide size and distribution, not necessarily grain size.
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Conflating grain size with carbide size was dumb on my part I was very tired when I wrote that tbf.

Also on another topic: much of what I have heard about steels is from perspective of folding knives where pm process most always increases toughness in high carbide steels; and wrongly assumed it is similarly the case in (toughness oriented or other) lower carbide steels where in fact the carbides appear to be naturally on average much smaller than I thought. Somewhat (perhaps mostly) circumventing the need for pm to be optimized. I would like to thank lauranium for pointing out my mistake. My knowledge of metallurgy is rudimentary at best. Knowing this I did my best to ensure that the points on my first post on this thread were largely predicated on common sense interpretation, of other people's credible(imo) tests. Realizing the performance of pm vs non pm steel can be much closer than I thought does take away a point from that post for sure.

There are other people that have addressed me, and that I would like to reply to but probably won't have time today as I am pretty busy and typing on my phone which is all I have with is egregiously slow.
 
Cobalt said:
So, I tested the edges on these two knives by batoning them into cement nails. I ran each for about 6-7 minutes and an average of probably 40 hammer blows per minute. The knives are Carothers D3v and INFI. Neither failed nor chipped. They just indented. Extreme abuse test and fairly given to both knives. You can judge for yourself. The d3v did not beat INFI. They were close, but the INFI indented to a lesser extent. The blades were similar thickness and the edges were close in angle. The blade profile was slightly thinner on the mean street due to the higher saber grind. I might run a mora on this to make a point, because I already know what will happen to it. It will take heavy damage way before these two. So will a machete. I don't even give a machete a minute on these nails. Edge will be worthless. Oh, but they did survive juicyX;)

2fbX6Vx.jpg
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Sounds great! If you do this to a Mora, please use the stainless version (12C27), not the carbon (C100). In my experience the carbon Moras are not hard to chip or break (especially at low temperatures), while the stainless ones are close o INFI in impact resistance (if you thicken its edge angle accordingly). The Garberg is 14C28N and although in theory it should outperform 12C27 in all regards, in my experience it didn't for impact resistance. So if you go with a Mora for this test, a Stainless HD Companion would be what I strongly recommend. 😉
 
Jerry Busse said:
We have tested hundreds of blades throughout the years and always test several blades from every batch of steel.

Destructive testing of knife steel is only relevant if it is repeatable from blade to blade with the same level of impact, same angle, same firmness of grip, etc . . .

For those of you who have done your own destructive testing, also known as "beating your knife stupid when in a drunken rage", you know the huge difference that a minor change in the angle of impact can make. Couple this with how consistently tight you're holding the knife when swinging for the fences, and your favorite blade could be headed for an early grave!

Any knife can be broken, that's not big news.

However, the fairness factor is only there if the tests are done more scientifically and mechanically to ensure repeatability.

That is why there are Izod and Charpy impact testers used in metallurgical labs instead of these tests being performed by hand.

If you want to know how different steels with varying Rockwell hardnesses, bevel geometries, and edge angles hold up under impact, you must have knives made with the same bevel and edge geometry in order to compare them. Otherwise, your comparisons in knife steel will carry very little weight with those who truly love and use knives.

So, what can be done? We are currently putting several tests together that will highlight these differences.

These tests will show the areas where a variety of knife steels excel and which steels perform better for different applications.

This will take a lot of time, testing, and effort to put together, but it should be worth it. So, stay tuned my friends!

Let's Drink! :cool:

Jerry 😁


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Jerry Busse Jerry Busse I don't know how to thank you more for this initiative, sir! 🤩

Please try to also consider the temperature. Cold makes any material more brittle, including steel, so if you test some steels in summer and others in winter outside (as some youtubers do today), the results will still be irrelevant even if you equal all the other factors.

Cheers!
 
I don't chime in much, but every now and then I have to. After reading these posts, does anyone else ever sit back for a second and go "Holy shit. Actual owners of amazing knife companies are giving their thoughts to all of us rando knife lovers." I forget how this place amazes me.
 
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TheTip said:
Sounds great! If you do this to a Mora, please use the stainless version (12C27), not the carbon (C100). In my experience the carbon Moras are not hard to chip or break (especially at low temperatures), while the stainless ones are close o INFI in impact resistance (if you thicken its edge angle accordingly). The Garberg is 14C28N and although in theory it should outperform 12C27 in all regards, in my experience it didn't for impact resistance. So if you go with a Mora for this test, a Stainless HD Companion would be what I strongly recommend. 😉
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14c28n has better edge retention and better corrosion resistance but is the weaker steel.

12c27 or 420hc have potential to be as tough or tougher than infi/ 3v etc but are going to have considerably worse edge holding
 
Jaxx said:
I don't own any of Nathan's knives, & that is something I'm hoping to change very soon. Like...🤔 ASAP. 🙂👍
Quite honestly, I don't know why I haven't picked any up yet... I remember Nathan's chop testing vidz here on BF from years back, his knives took all the testing he gave them, & so little edge damage (if any) from those cinder blocks. 🤙
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Please don’t they are hard enough to get as is lol jk

With the exception of 1 Siegle, I only own Busses and CPKs for fixed blades . Designs and steels are unmatched imo
 
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