Many here make them much nicer than my own, although I probably do better than I admit. Point is though after I read Codger saying that it doesn't matter if they fall off the stick or whatever, it was like an epiphany. They don't have to be perfect or perfectly pretty. As long as I can and do make my shavings thin enough to start with a ferro rod, I really don't care how they look. All I ever wanted was quick natural materials fire making, possibly in bad weather. I feel at that stage now, and have for a while. I do however appreciate the pics and tips passed down as they have helped me on my journey, so thanks everyone.