Photos Talwar sword

Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
1,903
Recently i bought this old Indian Talwar sword, but it's not exactly my field of expertise.
If possible i would like to know the timeframe & region that the sword was made, and if the blade could possibly be wootz steel.
Thx in advance for any info you're willing to share, :)

















Specs:

Overall length: 35.04 inch (89,0 cm)
Blade length up to pointy handle end: 27.95 inch (71,0 cm)
Blade thickness measured just before pointy handle end: 5.63 mm
Blade thickness measured just before front double edge section: 5.15 mm
Blade thickness at mid double edge section: 3.0 mm
Measured edge angle: +/- 30 degrees inclusive, convex
Handle looks to be plain carbon steel.
Weight: 1135 grams
 
Last edited:
I am well out of my depth as well but I remember discussions regarding plain, late tulwar during the end of the 19th century. Some made by Mole, in England resemble this one shown. A plain iron/steel hilt with a pommel having some pie-crusting like decoration at the end of the hilt. I would suspect definitely India and just before, or around 1900.

Cheers GC
 
Looks old. 18th century? At least, most of the ones similar to this that I've seen have been 18th century. Could be wootz - can't tell with the blade in that condition. The blade might be non-Indian in origin (Persian or Ottoman), but there are similar Indian-made blades.
 
Currently busy with resharpening the main edge with my worn-in 120 grit diamond file.
It feels like i'm grinding high carbide steel, and i definitely need to use some pressure to make the file cut & remove material, otherwise it just skids over the surface.
The remnants of the old main edge measured a slightly convex ~30 degrees inclusive, and the new main edge will be about the same.
The blade also used to have it's swedge sharpened in the past, so i will probably redo that as well later on.

 
With the sword clamped to the table i use the diamond file with two hands.
Already ordered a 300 grit diamond file from the Bay to refine the bevels a bit later on.
If the new edge comes out good enough i will also clean up the blade surfaces and maybe try to obtain a new and somewhat bigger handle.



 
Finished making a new ~30 degrees inclusive convex edge with the 120 grit diamond file.
Using a light touch and WD40 oil on the file surface produces a comparatively small burr, which will now be refined further with a 300 grit diamond file and again WD40 oil.







 
Finished making a new ~30 degrees inclusive convex edge with the 120 grit diamond file.
Using a light touch and WD40 oil on the file surface produces a comparatively small burr, which will now be refined further with a 300 grit diamond file and again WD40 oil.








You can try this to see if it is wootz.

 
Well, not any more!!!! Now that it has had a diamond stone to the edge, and ground up...... it's a "user now"

That was my thought as well. I know exactly nothing about tulwars in exactly the same way I know nothing about original M1 garand rifles or pre-Colombian statuary but I don't mess with those things until I get the all clear from someone that does know about them.
 
At the moment i'm fairly certain that my talwar is an actual fighting sword, not some wallhanger.
The whole blade geometry seems to point in that direction, including a long & wide but shallow fuller on each side of the blade, which is almost impossible to see in the pictures.
The widened tip area is called a yelman or yalman, and it seems that this could either be a false edge or a fully sharpened one.
Based on the relatively heavy blade i think that this sword was meant to be used on horseback.

Regarding the use of the talwar (and other Indian weapons) i have found this website to be very interesting:

http://indianfight.com/
 
At the moment i'm fairly certain that my talwar is an actual fighting sword, not some wallhanger.
The whole blade geometry seems to point in that direction, including a long & wide but shallow fuller on each side of the blade, which is almost impossible to see in the pictures.
The widened tip area is called a yelman or yalman, and it seems that this could either be a false edge or a fully sharpened one.
Based on the relatively heavy blade i think that this sword was meant to be used on horseback.

Regarding the use of the talwar (and other Indian weapons) i have found this website to be very interesting:

http://indianfight.com/

The point was that if the sword had any value as an antique that value has probably been greatly reduced or destroyed. Many antique katana were fighting weapons as well, but their value is still greatly damaged if they are wire wheeled or "sharpened."
 
Well, to me the sword will actually be more valuable in functional condition having a sharp edge again.

:)
 
Beyond describing damascus vs wootz is that there were and are/were crucible steels that do not show the dynamic patterning shown in Matt's visual transformation video. This, even with steels made in other areas of the middle east. Even if the etch shows no fancy pattern, what one wants to be looking for is the dendrites.

We don't list David Boye's dendritic cast steel as wootz
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/david-boye-cast-dendritic-cobalt-knife-i-finished.1591809/

We don't describe modern crucible steel (check out modern crucible steels) as wootz.

We don't describe "the finest cast steel" being produced in England and elsewhere from the late 18th century on as wootz.

So, start by looking for dendrites and coarse looking blades are often pounded out from crucible cakes. Some lack the specific ingredients and process that set wootz apart from other less specific processes. I have a number of swords, one a British blade that is cast/crucible steel from around 1800 and shows the dendritic "sparkles" that had been a refined and polished sword. I have an 1800ish yataghan that is similarly a blade that shows the "trees" after polishing out some modern grinding scratching. I now have a hunting sword from about that same 1800ish period that also shows dendritic structure but I highly expect if I were to polish and etch it that the true wootz pattern simply would not show. Some regard the later mid east process as bulat/fulad, less refined European crucible undefined but in that same bucket. We have a fellow named Pettibone in the early 19th century that had a patent for joining mild steel/iron tangs to cast (crucible) steel blades.

At any rate, there is no reason to not go ahead with a polish and etch at this point but don't be disappointed and don't forget at all crucible steel blades from the past are not best described as wootz.



My truly minty Woolley&Deakin cast/crucible blade from England mounted by a New York cutler early 19th century. The mottled look is actually a sparkly finish of the original polish. Read on early British cast steel. This was refined blister/shear steel cooked in long crucibles to refine and homogenize the steel.

Quest 004.jpg Quest rght.jpg

My yataghan

aayatf.jpg
touch.jpg aayat6.jpg
wootzex.jpg

My recently acquired hunting cuttoe. Blade steel origin unknown and I'll likely do little more than some more cleaning and not try to replicate the finish of that Woolley blade's smoothness.

hb.jpg hbh.jpg

And finally an 1812ish Pettinbone cast/crucible steel blade. American made. I could only wish to own this one but I did archive the
images.

lf1.jpeg lf.jpeg

So, look beyond ratty looking blades when looking at old blades but don't jump on the wootz wagon with full expectations or description. There is still enough confusion and disagreement over describing damascus knife blades. The great NOVA presentation The Secrets of the Viking Sword, for instance, shows crucible steel being made but is not described as wootz.

Best
GC

Reading now, looks good
https://journals.openedition.org/ceroart/2557

Another handy that shows a pile of British crucibles. These were "large" production hearths holding several crucibles, somewhat like a wood cook stove.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Crucible_steel
 
Last edited:
I just want to add in a separate post that the more spectacular wootz patterning is not just the cakes themselves and how they were cooked but then how they were forged.
 
Well, to me the sword will actually be more valuable in functional condition having a sharp edge again.

:)

Well, you purchased the sword and you certainly have the right to do what you want with your property. There is, however, a school of thought which suggests that in the case of antiques, weapons or otherwise we are caretakers of history rather than true owners.
 
Partial etching attempt with a bit of lemon juice, just to see if something would appear.
It seems it did, but so far it doesn't look like any of the wootz patterns i see online.
Click 2 x on the picture, then enlarge further.

 
Last edited:
It looks to have dendritic structure to me. As mentioned, not all crucible steel is truly regarded as wootz and forging out the cakes often pounds out/obfuscates a more distinctive watery pattern.

Cheers
GC
 
Back
Top