863 Who done it?

[thawk]

Wondering about the Schrade 863 Balloon Whittler pattern. In 1938 I find the old C8633 3/4

The coping blade is down at the end. Looks like there were two variations, one with a pen, and one with a small clip (the CS8633 3/4)

Next one I find is in the 1953 catalog, and pattern has been shortened to the 863, and the coping blade is up top. With clip on bottom.

Camillus and Ulster both made this pattern too, at least with the high end coping blade. Wondering if anyone knows who first brought the coping up to the top of the knife first. Camillus used it for a Boy scout knife (a 72 pattern they called it), and I have an Ulster 63, delrin handles, mirror finished master clip blade.

The old Camillus versions did a long matchstrike pull.

Anyone know the history of the whittler with the coping blade out of place? Every time someone posts this knife there are comments about the coping blade.

 

[waynorth]

I don't know when they changed it; it seems like you are hot on the trail though!
The reason seems obvious;
it's way easier to construct a knife in the ordinary 3-blade style, than one with the traditional whittler style (wedged backsprings like the C8633 3/4").

 

[Codger_64]

Here is a catalog cut from the Sears Roebuck 1941 catalog. This was about the first time the Craftsman name appeared on pocketknives, via Albert Baer, new owner of Ulster. If nothing else, it shows when the pairing of the master and cope was not done by Ulster.

The same #9529 in 1943:

The #9488 in 1949:

 

[thawk]

Good point Charlie. It doesn't really help the question I ask, but here are the two delrin versions I have. The Schrade NY on top, with 863 on the pile side was a good example of hitting it right with the delrin color. I like it when they engraved the shield too.

The Ulster 63 certainly has a Camillus looking swedge. It is a nice pattern to run in the pocket. I have one I carry sometimes with the stamp ground off.

Eric has a nice bone Walden 863 with a KON-KAV master. Maybe he will post a pic for us. Larry, stick that Camillus 72 in here too. It is a dandy.

Michael, thanks for that Craftsman ad. I'd love to find that baby. A "sloyd" blade. WTF! That's a beautiful pen.

 

[lwt210]

The Camillus 72 in question. Got it yesterday and asked Hal to enlighten me on the difference between it and the 863. Was listed as 440 stainless but one apple later the main blade was stained. I cleaned that off and snapped this shot.

Is a quick pic. I will take some more in a bit. Right after I finish the flat iron cheddar barbeque chicken I just cooked.

I figure it is carbon steel. The instruction manual says blade staining is normal and to keep oil on them.

 

[lwt210]

Man was that good!!!

I actually bought the Camillus for a user and now am having second thoughts. I do have another 863 coming soon. Maybe it will be the user or I will stick with my Case pinched bolster whittler. Wish Case would make a split back whittler in CV.

 

[brady806]

:thumbup:my 2nd favorite pattern:thumbup:
heres the one right fresh out of my left ft pocket, schrade walden 863. this one has a swedge on the master.
camillus 72 is a dandy also, seen some with a deeper "swoop" on the master clip and matchstrike pull.------------brady

 

[lwt210]

Looks like the Camillus is going to be a user. I cut a couple of apples today and have a great patina going.

 

[thawk]

Nice pictures Larry. Now I'm hungry for some reason. That Camillus looks great with the Federal shield. Wondering if that 863 of Eric's has the cool looking shield like in the 53 and 38 catalogs?

 

[ea42]

Here ya go Hal, nice examples you guys have been putting up! This one's got a federal shield, likely due to the fact that it's a later knife (likely 1958-59ish). I don't think those cool shields were around long after the switch to Schrade-Walden.

[/IMG]

 

[brady806]

:thumbup:now thats a dandy eric!!!!!!!beautiful:thumbup:----brady

 

[thawk]

Thanks Eric. I was sure your 863 was peachseed bone and pretty sure KON-KAV ground. The Federal Shield looks good on there, and it still even has the etch.

Looking at pictures from an various catalog sheets. In 1953 the Ulster "63" had black stagged handles, sabre ground clip, and no shield. The coping blade was on the high side then. in 1959 is showed Bonite handles, sabre ground clip, oval shield with Ulster engraved in script.

By 1963, changed to Staglon handles, dropped the engraving, still had the sabre ground clip. Even in the 1970 catalog it showed examples with a sabre ground clip so the Ulster I have must be after that.

Here it is shown in a 1955 Belknap catalog:

I would not mind finding one of the "Carpenters Knives" in Yellow Pyralin examples, or stag (bone stag). Still has the "Uncle Henry" shield in this illustration.

 

[lwt210]

Ahh, patina.

Soon be time to dig the basswood out and start whittling again. Too snowy lately to sit out back and make the chips fly.

 

[Codger_64]

Here is an oddity for you...

What I am seeing here is an Old Timer shield on an Ulster #63 SFO for Sears. Production records show this pattern shipped under this particular Sears number in 1959, though the pattern itself had been sold to Sears as early as 1941 as the #9529 (with pen and sloyd blade paired opposite the pocket blade). Previously, we have only seen the Old Timer shielding on very few Ulsters, namely the 114OT, 50OT, 10OT, 12OT, and 58OT. So do we have a 63OT, or a reshielded Ulster Craftsman?

It is a Sears Craftsman #9494. My records identify it as an Ulster #63 Whittler's Knife.

9494 - Ulster 63 Whittler 3 bl. 3 5/8"(1959)

Not so odd you say? Wait... look at this:

No, it is the standard "swell center" #63 pattern. Here... look closer...

Yeah, the shield! It is neither the Craftsman underlined nor the Craftsman Crown.

A replacement? A mistake? The production shield would have Ulster in script. So what do I have here (besides out of focus eBay photos)?

 

[thawk]

Yep Michael that is certainly a Schrade for you! They are surely often head scratchers. That shield is oval, not oblong like the OLD TIMER they put on a 58OT. For sure is a circa 1959 too, with the Bonite handles. I have a Ulster 55 stockman with the same handles like that one, with the oval shield and Ulster engraved.

Not same pattern, but same era.

 

[Beaver]

Here is a circa late 1940's Camillus (short line under Camillus) whittler that sees a fair amount of pocket time. One of my favorite users. Although the photo does not show it well, the master clip has a really nice "swoop" as Brady called it with match strike pull. Please excuse to poor photo.

 

[thawk]

Thanks Brady and Beaver for posting the Camillus examples. The sabre grind really adds appeal to this pattern.

 

[ea42]

Michael, maybe that shield's a leftover from the cancelled Imperial Old Timers? I think they were originally ovals, although I've got one with the word "Imperial" on it as well. I like those old enigmas, always keeps you wondering.

 

[waynorth]

Here are my three to look at;

This is clearly a Schrade.

This looks like a Camillus. It has no markings except on the shield.

I don't know what the heck this is! Might be a German knife (steel pins). Unauthorized repro? At first I thought Camillus, because of the large top bolster.

 

[thawk]

Three nice ones Charlie. The Keen Kutter shield always adds a nice touch. The stamp would have looked nice too. The Remington sure resembles the Camillus knife blades. I think these three makers (Schrade, Camillus, and Ulster) all interchanged parts from time to time to keep future collectors on their toes.