Backup blade for the Uniformed Guy/Gal with a Handgun?

Vampire Gerbil

Vampire Gerbil

Gone, but not forgotten. RIP Dave
Platinum Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Messages
1,819
Hiya!
Please allow myself to introduce myself.
I've been hanging around here at BFC for a while... guess you can look at the thing by my name and it'll say how long... and I'm one of those guys that's collected weapons for about 30 years, and freely ADMIT that I know very little.
(Although I HAVE developed the Ultimate Leatherman Micra Self Defense Course... be careful with the the knowledge you learn from there!)

I'm Uniformed Security, armed, and travel about 150 miles per night, graveyard shift, in North Las Vegas. I go to bars, convenience stores and other places that have gaming machines. I'm security for the technicians that remove jammed bills or pay off jackpots. North Las Vegas ain't exactly the best neighborhood in the world... and there's some real interesting folks I've seen in the bars after 3 am! :)
Anyhow, I posted a question at the General Forum, asking what my options were regarding a blade to carry as backup in the event that someone attempts to snatch my firearm.
I'm already carrying a Glock 21 in a Safariland SS III, so I think I covered the proper holster question.
I still like having backups for my backups, so in addition to the OC and ASP, I'm presently carrying a Microtech SOCOM, half plain, half serrated, "Tanto" blade in my left pocket.
It's there in the event that I'm worried that someone may actually gain access to my weapon (one really big guy, 2 or more smaller ones, etc....) and thought a blade would be a decent persuasion in making a fellow change his mind about wanting my weapon.
The MT I have is right handed, and being right handed, I've kept it in my left pocket, for use with my left hand.. duh, etc.
I'm able to deploy it easily enough, and perhaps now I'm seeking a cure for something that doesn't need fixing, but I'm curious as to CJ's thoughts on the matter, and any suggestions he may have.

IDEALLY, I had thought that a Spyderco Civilian type blade, set up left handed, in an automatic/other FAST-EASY opening mechanism would be the best... but last I heard, it isn't made... and while I know that there's many members here that would be able to make me a custom to fit this criteria, I'm afraid that I couldn't afford the price tag.

Ok, sorry to be so long winded... but I tend to type alot.... in real life, I barely say a word!
Thanks in advance, and welcome to BFC, and most of ALL, THANKS for making yourself available!
VG
 
Well VG, I think I replied to your post else where but I must say that working in the Security Biz in vegas must be pretty good.I try to stay pretty simple myself. I carry a Spyderco Wayne Goddad LTWT in my left front Pocket and an Emerson SARK in my right Front pocket.
If I were Going for a knife that was soley for a gun grab deterance
I would go with a Matriarch or something that was fully serrated.
 
Hiya Royo!
Yeah, I think ya DID reply, and thanks again.
I figured I'd ask here to:
A: Ask something that seemed suited to this forum,
and
12: To say hello.

I like the fully serrated idea as well.... hence the Civilian idea... but auto would really be ideal, I think.
VG
 
VG, I was thinking...
(no one laugh)
If you switched the clip to tip up (drilled some new holes)
Maybe it would be possible to use a dremel tool to cut a hole in the spydie hole thereby making a wave mechanism?
I thought about the same thing you did when i worked security. I like the hawkbill serrated, but i thought it would be better if opened quicker. I know it sounds risky working on such an expensive knife, but what do you think?
 
Hi VG,

If you plan to wrestle with someone it's hard to beat an unbroken blade. Perhaps something like this older Black Widow model by Colin Cox.
 
Originally posted by zantetsuken
VG, I was thinking...
(no one laugh)
If you switched the clip to tip up (drilled some new holes)
Maybe it would be possible to use a dremel tool to cut a hole in the spydie hole thereby making a wave mechanism?
I thought about the same thing you did when i worked security. I like the hawkbill serrated, but i thought it would be better if opened quicker. I know it sounds risky working on such an expensive knife, but what do you think?
Click to expand...

I've considered doing this to a matriarch (already tip up). Don Rearic mentioned doing this on an endura in a thread I started a while back. I still haven't gotten around to this project though...
 
Making the blade tip up might help a little, but I think I solved the problem, with the help of member, Frank Castle.
He's hooking me up with a leather sheath for the MT that resists snatch attempts.
The problem I had with the clip (and I imagine it'd happen if I were to reverse the clip as well) is that it tended to get caught on all the crap I carry on my belt.
I carry everything a police officer does and I get in and out of cars approximately 50 times per night.
The first time I carried the MT, I thought the best place to carry it was clipped to the radio holster. It sure seemed secure enough, but getting in and out of my vehicle caused the radio to shift, bending the hell out of the clip. I carry it in my front pants pocket now, which really isn't ideal, as I have to sorta move my ASP or radio out of the way to get to the blade.
It's probably my own fault though, as I have an ample sized belly. I think a slimmer person wouldn't have this problem.

As for the fixed blade, as I said, my duty belt's already pretty full, plus the sight of a FB on my belt would draw unwelcome attention.
Imagine seeing a police officer with a fixed blade on his duty belt. Even though all of us here are pro-knife, I think even some of us might think the LEO in question was going a bit too far.

I just woke up and had the brilliant idea of what would be perfection for this application tho!

Think Harpy/Civilian/Hobbit style blade, set up in a left handed Emerson WAVE configuration!
My EDC when not on duty is a right handed Commander. That thing opens when you take it out of your pocket, even if ya DON'T try opening it! If it was set up as a left handed model, with a curved "Preying mantis arm" sorta blade, I think this would be perfection.
Whaddya think?
VG
 
Maybe it was mentioned in the other thread, but a lefty Commander would seem to be a sensible choice.
I don't know about availability from dealers.
http://24.24.212.16/Emerson Knives/Tact_index.html
You could have a matching pair;)

Link doesn't work like I thought it would. You can click on knives, then on lefthanded models.
 
How about buying a left-handed Emerson Sark and having the blunt tip modified into a pointy one? It does have the Wave on it...

Personally, I'd go with a Spyderco Matriarch with the clip reversed for left-handed carry (in fact, that's precisely how I carry mine, being a southpaw). I find the Spyder hole as fast as any automatic, though of course not as fast out of the pocket as the Wave.

Leo
 
VG:

Where you carry your blade, whatever blade you choose, should be dictated by the retention techniques that you have been trained in (if you got that training) or the techniques that you're going to start researching tomorrow! (if you didn't get that training).

Grab a friend, a red gun, and your duty gear. Go through some slow "gun grab" scenarios. Practice your retention techniques. Pay attention to the various options to "lock in" the gun to the holster to keep it there...then think about how to fit the blade into the flow of the techniques you already know (or the one's you're gonna learn tomorrow!).

Once you're past the initial reaction and lock, and it's time to deal with the bad guy attached to your holstered gun...are you more secure keeping your left hand locked in or your right? The hand you use and, more importantly, the direction of pressure applied should reinforce the retention system of your holster...so what position allows you to do that with the most strength? Now, where can you put a knife that will help you?

For me, I carry two knives (a Spydie Military and a Spydie Gunting). The Military is my main "utility" blade...the Gunting is my main defense blade...but they both serve dual roles. I keep one above my waist and one below my waist...you never know what position you might get pinned in when your in that fight for your holstered gun. The Military is clipped to the trauma plate pocket of my vest, reachable by either hand. The Gunting is clipped to my right "sap" pocket on the back of my right thigh...the first place I'll go and a very short reach from the "locked" position. Downside to that is it's visible and accessible there. Have to be extra aware of that.

I also carry a backup G30 but since you didn't ask about that I won't address it here.

Experiment, you'll find what is going to work best for you. I don't think the "model" of knife is nearly as important as your own preparation for how you're going to access it and use it.
 
Maybe because of Ron Hood's and his "Hoodlum's" influence on me, I'm quite partial to the Al Mar SERE-2000. Lightweight, sharp, strong liner lock. Quality through and through!! ;)
 
Here's a link to a picture of an Emerson Sark, modified by Bill Siegle (courtesy of the Emerson Knife Forum's Gallery):

PSARK

Leo
 
Blood Sucking Rodent,
My friend, first don't bring a knife to a gun fight!
When working I will always have at least one backup handgun, in addition, other than on a plane (recently), I will have at least three knives/edged weapons on me. They are light and easy to conceal and I think we all know they can be very effective. I have my weapons so that both hands can reach a backup, both standing and sitting/or down.
Sometimes depending on the type of knife a left handed version isn't a bad idea.
On the subject of the serrations, I prefer to have half and half. Full serrations have a tendency to get hung up on clothing and bone during a slashing technique, when stabbing it doesn't make a difference unless you hit bone.
I would also suggest you work on your weapon retention technique. I believe control of the weapon is essential in retaining your weapon and that requires both hands in addition to lowering your center of gravity so I am not sure were the reach for the knife would come in but who knows, at that point however I think he would deserve more than a knife strike if you know what I mean.
Also I feel automatics are a good idea for the pros. incase your hand is damaged and opening manualy becomes difficult.
Take care, I hope it helps.
 
Originally posted by Vampire Gerbil
As for the fixed blade, as I said, my duty belt's already pretty full, plus the sight of a FB on my belt would draw unwelcome attention.
Imagine seeing a police officer with a fixed blade on his duty belt. Even though all of us here are pro-knife, I think even some of us might think the LEO in question was going a bit too far.
Click to expand...

The purest here might discount this as its just from a semi-rural high school and therefore not "urban jungle."

A small skinny black kid was being shoved back and forth by three large caucasians with ruddy necks. The black kid did a sort of half turn away from one as he was shoved and suddenly had a machete in his hand, raised just over the hand of the next would-be shover. The trio departed hastely and I had the chore of requesting he surrender his blade. Actually that was no trouble at all. He was quiet willing to let me have it with no argument at all.

How had he carried it? He had an army web belt twisted into a figure eight across his back and around each shoulder. in the middle where the belt crossed he had fastened a heavy duty clip of the sort you can get at any office supply store. The point of the blade was held by the clip, the handle reached down to just above his hips. The machete was a short one, only about 14 inches overall and hung at a sort of angle. He wore an open, long tailed, jean jacket over it. He claimed to have been wearing the rig to school for months.
 
Whelp, I gotta answer CJ first, cuz he's HMFIC of this here forum.
;)
Howdy CJ!
:D
I know about the "bringing a knife to a gunfight" rule, and wouldn't ever do anything that silly, unless I was in a place that denied firearm carry (Which is one reason I moved outta NJ to Nevada) and if I ever face a person that is armed with a firearm, mine will come into play (as will my bladder, etc)
(Hey, a man's gotta know his limitations, right?)
Heh heh...
Anyhow, I asked about the knife option in the event that someone attempts to get MY handgun. I go into lots of bars in the wee hours (bars don't close in North Vegas) and meet lots of strange drunks. My only concern is if a mean drunk decides that he wants to start target shooting with my weapon, and thought that some kind of curved blade would both hurt/injure him/her(?) while also providing me with a mechanical advantage, i.e. hooking the arm that's grabbing the weapon.
I don't have any formal training in weapon retention, and the company sure won't pay for it, but I'm looking into that.
The problem is that I'm awake when the rest of the world is asleep (all vampire issues aside!)
I don't have a decent place to hide another firearm, as my uniform consists of bloused BDUs and a poloshirt that's tucked into my BDUs. We're supposedly getting new uniforms that will have regular trousers. Then I'll carry either my Glock 30 or 26, depending on how heavy that 30 gets.

All in all, the weapon retention training seems to be my best bet...
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to say this.
I know that security guards tend to be looked at with ridicule amongst the general population. We're considered "cop wannabes". etc. I just wanted to say that I really don't fall into this category, and my asking about weapons to possibly help me in my job shouldn't be seen as me being some kinda "Mall Ninja" case.
The job I do is, as far as I can tell, unique to my company. There's other slot route companies in Vegas, and, I suppose, in other places where there's legalized gambling, but they don't have security. They also get robbed alot. The company I work for has the lowest rate of robberies, and NO ROBBERIES where a guard has been assigned to a technician.
All in all, in the past 3 months since working there, other than one run-in with some Crips (we came to an understanding.. they stay away from me and my tech, and I continue to "respect" them) nothing's been all that threatening.
Still, we all know how drunks can get, and they're my major concern.
(Would you believe that one guy approached me and asked me to shoot him? I explained that I would be happy to help, but I had just cleaned my weapon, and hated to have to clean it again after shooting him. He thought about that, said, "OK" and had a seat.)
((Man, but I DO ramble on, don't I!!!)
Anyhow, thanks for the advice, CJ.. if anything, it put a fire under my ass to get some additional training!
Anyhow, I just didn't want anyone thinking I'm having Rambo-like fantasies or anything.... I was a firefighter/EMT for 5 years and have seen what the insides of people look like, and do NOT look forward to being the cause of someone's insides coming out... unless to defend against someone doing that to me or an innocent person... and if that happened, I know it'd bug me for the rest of my life....
I am SUCH a wuss!
;)
VG

Hmm.. for the rest of you guys...
Thanks for the input!
What I guess I was getting at was the fact that I was looking for a rapidly deployable (those words seem unright... but you know what I mean) blade that would give me a mechanical advantage, as well as the obvious benefits of an edged weapon.

Now then, isn't this the most disjointed response ya ever saw at this forum?
Still, I hope I made myself understood.
VG
 
I like to keep a blade accessible to my left, weak hand. For this reason, I carry a right handed Emerson SOCFK in my left front pocket towards my centerline. It is drawn out and away from my body, towards my 10:00. The wave feature works and the knife is instantly available in a reverse-ice-pick grip. Before the SOCFK, I used a waved-7B, same result. A left handed Emerson might be more desireable, but they are only available directly from EKI at full retail. This option works great, and you can use any readily available waved Emerson.

BTW, I first learned of this technique from fellow Usual Suspect Ken Cook.
 
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