Blood Groove on a blade for what?
- Thread starter RCC
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 6, 1998
- Messages
- 2,300
In addition to stiffening, it is designed to create a more serious puncture wound that bleeds worse. Most all military bayonets have it.
- Joined
- Jun 12, 1999
- Messages
- 1,110
all though it is a fuller, many knife companies have named it a blood groove. it serves no purpose.
- Joined
- Jun 12, 1999
- Messages
- 1,110
forgot to add, it serves no pupose on a decorative knife.
Fullers lighten the blade. They make it neither stiffer nor stronger compared to the blade left at full thickness, but can allow a fair amount of metal (and weight) to be removed without substantially lowering strength. Think of an I-beam - it is not stronger than a solid bar of the same dimensions, but it is still very strong and much lighter.
Blood grooves have a lot of explanations, and I won't guess as to which is correct and which is pure myth. They allow air to flow into the wound as the blade is withdrawn, so no vacuum is created and no extra force is needed to withdraw it. Another possibility is directing blood down the blade in a controlled manner, so it doesn't wash willy-nilly over the guard. There is also a medieval belief that air in the wound is deadly (some old European weapons have perforated blades for this purpose).
When is it a fuller and when is it a blood groove? Fullers may be wider, but I don't think there's a clear point of distinction. On a knife, I'd say either one is just for looks.
-Drew
Blood grooves have a lot of explanations, and I won't guess as to which is correct and which is pure myth. They allow air to flow into the wound as the blade is withdrawn, so no vacuum is created and no extra force is needed to withdraw it. Another possibility is directing blood down the blade in a controlled manner, so it doesn't wash willy-nilly over the guard. There is also a medieval belief that air in the wound is deadly (some old European weapons have perforated blades for this purpose).
When is it a fuller and when is it a blood groove? Fullers may be wider, but I don't think there's a clear point of distinction. On a knife, I'd say either one is just for looks.
-Drew
Hey Guys:
Thanks for all the advice & answers.
Now here is my last question. The damascus dagger that I have is about 9" long.
The fuller and/or blood groove is about 3.875" long and about 0.30" long.
Now should I advertise this as a fuller or blood groove?
I am kind of torn between 2 places. A fuller from what I read above should like that is the proper name....but....a blood goove just has a nice *ring* to it!
Well thanks in advance.
Ric
Thanks for all the advice & answers.
Now here is my last question. The damascus dagger that I have is about 9" long.
The fuller and/or blood groove is about 3.875" long and about 0.30" long.
Now should I advertise this as a fuller or blood groove?
I am kind of torn between 2 places. A fuller from what I read above should like that is the proper name....but....a blood goove just has a nice *ring* to it!
Well thanks in advance.
Ric
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Jim Hrisoulas's point, when he said the fuller stiffens the blade, was made through experience. Take a sword that has no fuller and wave it around, and the tip can swing in a whippy manner. Then he puts a fuller on it, and the tip is less whippy.
And, of course, it lightens the blade.
I've not noticed a difference, and never seen any evidence at all, that there's any vaccuum suction release or other such effect with a fullered blade. I tend to think the fullers on bayonets are there as an artifact from the swords they replaced. As a result, on short blades, I tend to look at the fuller as strictly decorative.
You can check out the FAQ by going to deja.com, hitting power search, put in me for author, rec.knives for newsgroup, and Blood Groove FAQ for subject.
Joe
And, of course, it lightens the blade.
I've not noticed a difference, and never seen any evidence at all, that there's any vaccuum suction release or other such effect with a fullered blade. I tend to think the fullers on bayonets are there as an artifact from the swords they replaced. As a result, on short blades, I tend to look at the fuller as strictly decorative.
You can check out the FAQ by going to deja.com, hitting power search, put in me for author, rec.knives for newsgroup, and Blood Groove FAQ for subject.
Joe
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
If you take a piece of sheet metal and bend it it will be stiffer in the direction perpendicular to the bend. This is simply because the crytal alignment has been altered. Of course it is now weaker in the direction of the bend. If you magically scooped out a fuller I don't think it would make it stiffer (if it did think of the consequences with extending that action). However its not really done that way by Bladesmiths and the steel could be strengthened by the process.
As for blades sticking and such, that doesn't happen (no combat experience, but have seen and done many animals). Neither is it really necessary to make a wound much worse by altering the blade shape in any odd manner. 4" of steel in your chest is pretty unpleasant by anyones standards. There are people constantly killed with rather mundane knives (kitchen quality) and unfortunately it does not take much more than the flawed mindset.
-Cliff
As for blades sticking and such, that doesn't happen (no combat experience, but have seen and done many animals). Neither is it really necessary to make a wound much worse by altering the blade shape in any odd manner. 4" of steel in your chest is pretty unpleasant by anyones standards. There are people constantly killed with rather mundane knives (kitchen quality) and unfortunately it does not take much more than the flawed mindset.
-Cliff
Ok, here's what I know about fullers,most of which has been mentioned in previous posts, a fuller on a sword is used to reduce weight and to add stiffness, this was carried over to bayonets to do the same thing, as some WWI and WWII bayonents tended to be quite long. A fuller on knives less then a certain length (say 9") serves no purpose whatsoever other then looks and in cases where the stock used to make the blade is thinner then 1/4" a fuller can weaken a blade. I have no idea where the idea that a vacuum is created when a knife enters a body, but is quite simply a myth and I am basing this on personal experience and talks with combat veterans.
As for adevrtising the knife I would call it a fuller.
Walter (aka Suvorov)
As for adevrtising the knife I would call it a fuller.
Walter (aka Suvorov)
Ok thanks for all the help and advice.
I think I have figured it out.
What I am going to do is primarily call it a fuller and in brackets say AKA a blood groove.
I will post pics when I get some taken.
The blade is from a Twist # 2 from http://www.uai.org/Damascus.html
Thanks again,
Ric
www.knifesupplies.com
I think I have figured it out.
What I am going to do is primarily call it a fuller and in brackets say AKA a blood groove.
I will post pics when I get some taken.
The blade is from a Twist # 2 from http://www.uai.org/Damascus.html
Thanks again,
Ric
www.knifesupplies.com
- Joined
- Jun 27, 1999
- Messages
- 804
This is a pretty common debate, but I think you've got a good idea with advertising both.
The one thing I can contribute here is why it is called a fuller. It is named after the tool used to make it. A fuller is forged with a hardy called a fuller, with a matching fuller on a handle placed on top of it. The name for that type of tool escaped me at the moment. It stiffens a blade by making more surface area. In SCA, we use rattan swords. I've shaved off the sides of a round piece of rattan to flatten it on the sides. This made the sword that I made MUCH stiffer, and hit much harder than it's equivalents that were left round. Try it some time with a wood dowel, you'll see what I mean. The blood groove name is very dramatic, and will likely help you sell the blade, but including the fuller reference will likely keep from putting off people that know it as a fuller. People tend to get emotional over this subject, it seems.
------------------
Oz
"When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt."
- Henry J. Kaiser
The one thing I can contribute here is why it is called a fuller. It is named after the tool used to make it. A fuller is forged with a hardy called a fuller, with a matching fuller on a handle placed on top of it. The name for that type of tool escaped me at the moment. It stiffens a blade by making more surface area. In SCA, we use rattan swords. I've shaved off the sides of a round piece of rattan to flatten it on the sides. This made the sword that I made MUCH stiffer, and hit much harder than it's equivalents that were left round. Try it some time with a wood dowel, you'll see what I mean. The blood groove name is very dramatic, and will likely help you sell the blade, but including the fuller reference will likely keep from putting off people that know it as a fuller. People tend to get emotional over this subject, it seems.
------------------
Oz
"When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt."
- Henry J. Kaiser
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Drew,
Can't say I entirely understand it myself, but I put Hrisoulas's actual testing above theory. But here's the way I've been thinking about it. The fullered version doesn't have to be stronger than the unfullered version to be less whippy. It merely needs to be stronger for its weight. Whip around a 3lb. unfullered sword, and it needs to be stiff enough not to bend under its own weight. Whip around a 2.5 lb fullered version of the same sword, and it may be weaker but needs to remain stiff under less load. That's the theoretical explanation that I've been bouncing around.
Joe
Can't say I entirely understand it myself, but I put Hrisoulas's actual testing above theory. But here's the way I've been thinking about it. The fullered version doesn't have to be stronger than the unfullered version to be less whippy. It merely needs to be stronger for its weight. Whip around a 3lb. unfullered sword, and it needs to be stiff enough not to bend under its own weight. Whip around a 2.5 lb fullered version of the same sword, and it may be weaker but needs to remain stiff under less load. That's the theoretical explanation that I've been bouncing around.
Joe