BM Steel handles

tonyccw

tonyccw

Joined
Sep 2, 2001
Messages
8,276
Since the last thread should be reserved for Eric's inquiry, I'm creating a new one. Just harping on the soap box that Navajo started.

Originally posted by Gollnick
Benchmade's sure sold a ton of 'em that size. You can't argue with success.
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Which begs the question: If it was such a success, deos anyone know what was the rationale to go with cast Ti handles for the reintroduction?

I know about the decision to not upgrade the milling equipment for making the handles because of cost issues (Roberta and I had a lengthy discussion about that). But since BM continued to use the same dimensions as the old steel versions in the new 4x Ti series, why not just go back to steel handles?

You could still design in the latch gate; the torx adjustment screws; and keep the rest of the bali (blade dimensions, tang pins, and tang pin cups) the same.
 
Back in the old days the titanium handles were a $1000 option. I dreamed of that option back then. When I got my 42 it was a dream come true.

The lightness was wonderful and in line with the weight of todays modern folders. I still like the stainless handles. Maybe both options could be offered. (Just an idea.)

It is always good to dream. You never know when it can come true. :) :) :)
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
Benchmade's sure sold a ton of 'em that size. You can't argue with success.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which begs the question: If it was such a success, deos anyone know what was the rationale to go with cast Ti handles for the reintroduction?
Click to expand...

The 42/3/7 are just about the same size, the successful size. The difference is weight.

The Ti handles seem to be selling pretty well. If you make something, there will always be someone who wants something else. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

It took a while for me to fully adapt to the Ti handles. Now, I love 'em. When I pick up one of my 45s (and remember, I still think that the BM45 is the finest production balisong ever made which, by definition, makes it the finest production knife ever made) I find it rather heavy and rather cold. I still love my 45s, but I think that my 43s are now the most fun.
 
I have to agree with Chuck. Of all of the butterfly knives that I own, the model 42 is my favorate flipper. :)
 
Chuck: No question on the Ti handle's sale success. But what was the rationale for Les and Roberta to say "Hey, let make them out of Ti?" What made them jump into a decision that could alienate most, if not all, of the previous bali users? That was a major marketing gamble.

Are you saying the critical factor was weight savings?

The street price points for both are still the same, so it's not a matter of offering a lower cost model.

Reeko: The reason the Ti handles was a $1000 option was because Les was trying to discourage customers from ordering them. It didn't cost them anywhere near $1000 to make a set, but every time they milled a set of Ti handles, they break 3 to 4 cutting bits. They just didn't have the tools to properly do the job back then. And you should also remember that Ti was a rare metal back then, as the USSR kept most of the supplies for their own submarine fleet.
 
While I don't know what Les' specific reason for the comeback in Titanium was, one can speculate. At the time Titanium was, and continues to be the hot ticket in the knife world. A commitment to Titanium didn't have to last forever if it didn't sell well. Many bali afficionados no doubt thought a slightly lighter handle might be nice, even though they also liked the stainless. I don't see any likelihood of alienation with the Titanium decision, but rather a decision to stay abreast of the market. With the increased availability you mentioned, and a method of forming the handles, it became a go. The enormous success of the project indicates that Les was correct. The desire for stainless is partly because they're currently unavailable from Benchmade, and it would be nice to have them again in addition to the Titanium; and some collectors simply prefer stainless.
 
I too would love to see steel handles for flipping fun but I would never remove the Ti handle from my daily carry. I just love the feel of my 43 it is by far my all time fave in manipulation. I didn't flip my 45 I had for quite awhile. It was fun and it loved to get air but in the end my 43 won the day. I don't know if I had a point...oh well.
 
I think we all would like the option of SS handled BM Balis. The info I have is that the moulds used for the handles, after time, produced more scrap than usable parts -- they then became scrap !! Cost to re-place them was prohibitive. Hopefully, in the future, BM will find a way to make SS an affordable alternative to us. At this time, this may not be in BM's budget for the near future. We "may" see an ocassional offering of "specials", turned out on CNC equipment, but I don't see "production" SS balis in the short term, from BM. We all should remember those "bean counters" that have a hand in advising management. They've probably never handled a bali, but they direct the company to be profitable. We the consumers also have a voice ---IMO, it has been heard, but can't be acted on at the moment. I'll take bets that it does happen !!! Any "takers" ?? :)
 
As with everyone here, I'm glad that the BM Ti handled balis have become run away successes. I was not an early proponent of them, since they felt too light and didn't provide enough continous inertia. (To be honest, I initially found the 45's too light, and their level of blade play kept them from being considered as EDC's. So I stuck with my customs.)

But I just don't buy the "There wasn't enough money to build new molds" theory, as some big money had to have been spent to develope the new Ti series handle molds and casting procedures. They could have easily invested it new casting molds for the SS handles. I would hate to think how much money BM would have lost if the Ti handles only became a moderate success, and the 42 was only a limited production run. And since it was new technology, which would have produced a brand new bali with totally different play and feel, it had to be some pretty gutsy decision making on Les's part to go Ti.

I can see one advantage with the new Ti casting; labor savings. As they no longer needed to mill and polish the handles, post casting, as extensively as they did with the SS handles. I can buy that. That would be a sound economical call. But that was before they knew the 42's would be a success.

Current MIM technology today can produce excellent SS handles castings, with as little post casting labor required as the Ti handles. And because we're not talking about MIM'ing Titanium, the technology isn't limited to handles the size of the 31's.

Perhaps someone should just check with a few MIM manufacturers and see how much it would cost to cast a few thousand SS handles. It would be easy to do with today's technology. We just need someone to donate a Ti 4x bali to get the 3D measurements for the casting software. We know that BM has a corporate commitment somewhere to make SS handles. As seen in the investment in CNC technology to produce SS handles in house for the 49's.

In the end, BM still took a pretty decisive gamble, given, as Chuck stated, that they had such a successful business model with the SS 4x's. Still makes me wonder how the decision making process came about.

Edited to correct pre-coffee ramble.
 
I will gladly donate a 42 to who ever wants to make the measurements. I will loan out my Sampson ground Custom for the same reason as long as the Custom is never out of my sight. Same for my 35 and 68. As long as those two are never out of my sight.

RARanney, I do not want steel handles because BM is not offering them. I want steel handles because I do not like ti. Its that simple.
BM used to offer a choice. Now they don't.
 
I understand navajo, and edited my post to clarify. I would like to see both available.
 
Re. your edit RARanney, if BM's email storage capacity gets overloaded with requests for/complaints about lack of steel handles, BM will have to do something about it. Been in touch with the Tachyon folks. They will have a steel handled Tachyon some time in the future. And right now, the Monarch looks pretty good. Who knows? Looks like the intrest in balisongs is taking off again. The more, the merrier.
 
Let me clarify this SS vs. Ti controversy...........
chaos.gif


Thank you.... :)


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
Its human nature.
People want what they can't have.
 
Maybe they just wanted to try something new, to see if there was a market for it (the Ti, that is).

Perhaps they just took a long shot and said: 'Let's make Ti handles, and see how that goes, it could be worth the investment.' If so, they WERE right!

Just my $0.01 (because I'm so cheap! :D). ;)
 
I have to agree w/ RARanney - I bet it's because Ti has more cache than stainless steel. Everything is Ti these days, and most of them for no real reason, pens, watches, etc.. Ok, it's lighter, but I think mostly it's because the average consumer says "Oooh, titanium.."

Oh, and I'd love to have stainless handles - I actually like both ti and stainless about the same - just different.
 
I'm with nybble...I love Ti and SS. I will never stop buying Ti handle balis but if ss handles come out I will never stop buying those either.
 
I come from an aerospace background growing up, so I've been sold on the values of Titanium over Steel a long time ago. And back then titanium was a exotic metal, since most it was control by our Cold War enemy the Russians. There are venerated stories of how the CIA had to set up major complicated dummy companies in order to obtain enough titanium to make the SR-71 spy planes. Getting anything titanium was an expensive proposition, and only the best and most expensive items were available in titanium. When I was able to obtain some titanium rods to use as pivot pins for my BM customs, I was in heaven. It's still too soon for that memory to have gone away, even with the price of titanium dropping like mad compared to 20 years ago. But even if the price is no longer astronomical, the inherent advantages of titanium are still valid. It's lighter and as strong as steel in tensile strength. It also has very little magnetic signature. But when it comes to bali's, I grew up with SS handled defining my ideals for a bali, and no titanium handled bali will ever replace those ideals (except for those that were $1000 options from BM Customs). They have completely different handling dynamics, and I'm already set in my ways as to which I prefer.
 
Right on the button, Tony.

Mykl, I have stopped buying ti handled balis mainly because I can't sell them. My customers want the weight of steel.

BTW, the SR71 still holds the record. LA to DC in 68 minutes. Thats skipping through the dew!!:D
 
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