Boker copying the Becker line?

[james terrio]

Ok, an update to this.
As stated, Boker USA has never carried this line, and never will. After it was brought to Boker Germany's attention, they have dropped it from the catalog and will not be selling it any longer.
Thanks, Terry

I have no real dog in this "fight" but as a fan of knives in general, and someone who considers himself to be a reasonably upstanding human being, I appreciate your candor - and especially that it extends to you including direct contact info in your sig-line. That means a great deal to a lot of people, and it's just plain smart. :thumbup:

Also, everything Mr. Gibbs said. :thumbup:

 

[Bladite]

Your reply reads like you typed it with your face. :jerkit:

I personally know those in charge of Boker in Germany & hold them in very high esteem.
I doubt they were aware of this mess when they inadvertently selected the item from a vendor of excrement.
I am sure they are very embarrased by this, so yes, it appears they have "done the right thing".

It is your arrogant statement of delusional opinion I take umbrage with.
Your "expert opinion" is that it is just another knife & not the crystal clear rip-off that I KNOW IT IS!

Perhaps you failed to notice that it actually has handles on it from the mold that Camillus used?
Maybe you have not met the low life copulation stains that are actually responsible for making this travesty?
Is it possible that even with your depth of cutlery knowledge, you failed to comprehend that in using those handles, they actually used a portion of MY tool path code in cutting the blade out.

This has nothing to do with International Patent Law.
I never said it did.

Quite frankly, it is ignorant wankers like you who wrap themselves up in cozy blankets of inept brilliance, who are the useful idiots that allow this sort of piracy to thrive.

I am confident the vast majority of cutlery afficianados on Bladeforums see this knife for exactly what it is; a sad & pathetic effort to make a profit on other Men's work.


By the way, my Brother in Law is in charge of Nukes on submarines, yet I manage to go through life without convincing myself I understand the inner workings of Cruise Missiles.

Go Forth & Propagate you ignorant git.

go Phil!!! post of the month if not year!!!

btw, BK8 for life

suhweeet

 

[cricketdave]

Most epic post ever I'm still laughing and my family wants to know why lol.

 

[SeekHer]

Your reply reads like you typed it with your face. :jerkit:

I personally know those in charge of Boker in Germany & hold them in very high esteem.
I doubt they were aware of this mess when they inadvertently selected the item from a vendor of excrement.
I am sure they are very embarrased by this, so yes, it appears they have "done the right thing".

It is your arrogant statement of delusional opinion I take umbrage with.
Your "expert opinion" is that it is just another knife & not the crystal clear rip-off that I KNOW IT IS!

Perhaps you failed to notice that it actually has handles on it from the mold that Camillus used?
Maybe you have not met the low life copulation stains that are actually responsible for making this travesty?
Is it possible that even with your depth of cutlery knowledge, you failed to comprehend that in using those handles, they actually used a portion of MY tool path code in cutting the blade out.

This has nothing to do with International Patent Law.
I never said it did.

Quite frankly, it is ignorant wankers like you who wrap themselves up in cozy blankets of inept brilliance, who are the useful idiots that allow this sort of piracy to thrive.

I am confident the vast majority of cutlery afficianados on Bladeforums see this knife for exactly what it is; a sad & pathetic effort to make a profit on other Men's work.


By the way, my Brother in Law is in charge of Nukes on submarines, yet I manage to go through life without convincing myself I understand the inner workings of Cruise Missiles.

Go Forth & Propagate you ignorant git.

Bullocks, you bloody sod it is only about international patent laws so toss off you wanker.

This isn't about tea leaves it about POS Chi-Comm ass holes who have made a knife, that they have full and complete rights to do and well wherever the effing Hell they want to...Oh, they used your moulds? Big effing deal! Did you claim them back when Camillus went tits up? Yes? No? If not, then it only your own bloody stupidity (or cheapness) that some one is using them...But, guess what, arse licker, anybody with a modicum of intelligence and the proper compounds can make the moulds in their kitchen.

I agree, Boker is a reputable firm and they probably got duped into this mess by some Chi-Comm agent and as a good will, and not a bloody thing else, discontinued the line as they sure as bleeding, freaking, Hell they weren't scared into it with threats of legal action.

As to the propagation you Khyber Pass, my cobbler's awls work just fine. you chunk stain...My Hampton wick works quite well, it isn't brown bread you Berkshire.

You may learn more is your BIL actually could talk to you on the subject but when we meet for tucker, there is two Barnaby Rudges, and four Tom Sawyers at the table, so legal issues get discussed all the time.

So in the immortal words of someone--BITE ME!

 

[Bladite]

Bullocks, you bloody sod it is only about international patent laws so toss off you wanker.

This isn't about tea leaves it about POS Chi-Comm ass holes who have made a knife, that they have full and complete rights to do and well wherever the effing Hell they want to...Oh, they used your moulds? Big effing deal! Did you claim them back when Camillus went tits up? Yes? No? If not, then it only your own bloody stupidity (or cheapness) that some one is using them...But, guess what, arse licker, anybody with a modicum of intelligence and the proper compounds can make the moulds in their kitchen.

I agree, Boker is a reputable firm and they probably got duped into this mess by some Chi-Comm agent and as a good will, and not a bloody thing else, discontinued the line as they sure as bleeding, freaking, Hell they weren't scared into it with threats of legal action.

As to the propagation you Khyber Pass, my cobbler's awls work just fine. you chunk stain...My Hampton wick works quite well, it isn't brown bread you Berkshire.

You may learn more is your BIL actually could talk to you on the subject but when we meet for tucker, there is two Barnaby Rudges, and four Tom Sawyers at the table, so legal issues get discussed all the time.

So in the immortal words of someone--BITE ME!

here's a couple things you might not know. how could you?

to the best of my knowledge, easily confirmed... Ethan fully owns all rights, intellectual and otherwise, to his name, from Camillus and beyond. nobody else has claim. this goes back to the 80s. not 1999

Camillus, when they went under, retained none of his rights. ACME, who bought Camillus, has zero rights to the Becker line - though they TRIED to claim such. they hoped. oops.

Anyone that bought material, can't actuall claim rights, just what they bought, like blanks, and handles. making more? no. no rights.

a number of people cleaned out Camillus of anything even vagely related to Becker stuff. which includes mostly Ethan Becker (all rights), KaBar (tons of actual material), and some notable names.

Boker was able to obtain, once, a small cache of Camillus actual handles. which they then copied. and to their chagrin, were informed they will stop such. they complied. not because they are "nice". because of many other issues.

Ethan currently licenses all his goodies, afaik, to KaBar, to everyone's benefit.; afaik, Ethan OWNS those rights. they are not for sale.

Boker was entirely in the wrong, imho. that they stopped, and backed out, speaks well of their intelligence. just not their "good will".

some companies choose to not protect their rights, some do, and all it takes for that to happen is a quick word. for others, a little bit of money, and then they win millions. Samsung copied Apple, and has paid, and paid, and paid...

a couple Chinese companies tried to copy other Becker designs. shutdown. like magic.

you haven't made it, until someone has plagiarized your work

 

[Bladite]

Most epic post ever I'm still laughing and my family wants to know why lol.

pretty freaking cool.

p0wned

good on Boker for cleaning up the shoppe

 

[stvpourciau]

but when we meet for tucker, there is two Barnaby Rudges, and four Tom Sawyers at the table

Tom Sawyers, I like that one; and it's a very particular speech.


On an unrelated note, if you like to know so much about Camillus and Beckers and you dont recognize the man you're talking to's name, then you might go learn some more

And censor yourself just a little bit, you're liable to get booted from the fourum before you even establish yourself

 

[Bladite]

Tom Sawyers, I like that one; and it's a very particular speech.


On an unrelated note, if you like to know so much about Camillus and Beckers and you dont recognize the man you're talking to's name, then you might go learn some more

And censor yourself just a little bit, you're liable to get booted from the fourum before you even establish yourself

and more importantly... Becker was making knives long before Camillus decided to buy into the idea. heard of Blackjack? yup. THEY didn't retain any Becker rights when Ethan moved along. and before Blackjack? Ethan enjoyed a fair few years of autonomy. learn your history (by which i mean you newbies). i did oh. sorry. wait. i've been helping to document it since 1980s...

 

[james terrio]

So in the immortal words of someone--BITE ME!

That's not very helpful or enlightening. Frankly, it just makes you seem like a rather unpleasant person... even if you were right (which you're not).

Shortly after Camillus went belly-up, I bought a handful of their NOS blades from a retailer who was quite clear that they'd bought them at auction. I have since fashioned and finished those blades into custom knives, and have had them HT'ed to my preferred specifications.

"What's the point of all this, JT?" you might well ask... the point is, while I used those blades for my own profit-generating purposes, I dang sure didn't claim any rights to them or claim they were my own. The fact that they were genuine Camillus blades added value, and yes, I capitalized on that very openly.

I certainly did not copy them (or the dies that made them) and sell them as my own design :thumbdn:

I guess a person either "gets that" or they don't.

 

[Karda]

Any More Posts in the Vein of Posts numbers 38 and 44 will be met with infractions and thread closure. Civil debate is fine and encouraged. Insulting others is a violation of the Rules.

 

[Karda]

and more importantly... Becker was making knives long before Camillus decided to buy into the idea.

Mr. Becker was making knives long before 1878?
I didn't think he was quite that old....
You learn something new everyday.

 

[SeekHer]

Yes, I'm aware of BK&T history to some extent...I even know he made knives on his own in his garage but I only started buying his stuff in 1999/2000 and have every model he designed since then.

So, it's okay for a member who's been here since JC was in short pants to call me an onanist, casts aspersions of my family lineage in British/Cockney slang yet when I respond I get censure...At least I know, now, how the hierarchy works around here...Do you all kowtow to him and from bended knees placate his ego?

This matter is only about patent rights--not trademark or copyright--just patent.

The only thing that Ethan has is his own and the corporate name, that's it, no more and no less.
e.g. I make an exact copy of his Jerry Fish Magnum Camp knife--lay them side by side and you can not tell the difference, same scales, same steel, same heat treat, same blade colour--perfect in every way...I go out and sell this knife in the marketplace for 20% cheaper and I start garnering sales...As long as I don't put Becker, BK&T etc. on the knife, anywhere or in my advertising, I can tell him and of course Ka-Bar to go and pound sand...Why, because the knife, nor the blade shape and nor the handle shape are patented...If they were, I just wait the number of years until it expires and if I still want to, mass produce them in China and sell them; and again, I can tell him to go to Hell.

Look what happened to Samuel Colt when his revolving cylinder handgun's patent expired...Every gun maker in the world jumped headlong into producing their own variant(s) on the original design and even reversed engineered exact copies and others, like Remington, even improved it...Colt couldn't do a bloody damn thing about it except for suing those who made fakes, using the Colt's name without his/their permission as the name was the only thing that Samuel owned anymore.

Then again, a maker can authorize another maker to make items for them when production runs overwhelm the original maker's shop as long as it meets the original's criteria in every way and that's their purview not the designer's.

Intellectual property is only there if the "item" has been published © or registered as a trademark ®.

Then, you can put the name, picture, verse etc. by just adding the respective circled letters...Putting an exact copy of a song or poem into your book requires permission from the author, their estate or their agent and has to be listed as such: with permission, name of author, song/poem title and publisher if known unless it has come into common usage; like Happy Birthday!

Look at Jimmy Lyle and Gil Hibbin and Rambo®...They still made their own models of the knives used in the movies and could only call them Rambo if they had the permission of the movie's production company and/or Stallone himself because they didn't own the rights to that name...They could put in their advertising that they were the makers of the knife in the movies but unless Stallone et al said yes they couldn't put it on their knives and for which Stallone et al would get a portion of each and every sale...United and now Master come out and make authorized copies of the knives but they didn't care about Gil or Jimmy as the Rambo knife is owned by Stallone et al...Granted Gil had a good report with United but that's an aside...Not, the blade, knife or handle design but the name for that iconic blade...How many versions of that same knife are out there, being sold by dealers that don't have Rambo® on the blade? And all perfectly legal.

The knife designer can approach a large commercial maker and have them make knives for him to sell on his own and that's where their interests would end; he can give them exclusive rights to all of his design(s); he can have them make certain model(s) of his knives or he can have different knives made by different makers. e.g. Bob Dozier having knives made and sold by Boker and Ka-Bar.

Oh, Phil Gibbs, even if you miraculously shat those mould scales from your arse and had them blessed by the pope himself, unless you had a [now long expired] patent on them then they're nothing but semi holy faeces.

 

[Psyop]

Yes, I'm aware of BK&T history to some extent...I even know he made knives on his own in his garage but I only started buying his stuff in 1999/2000 and have every model he designed since then.

So, it's okay for a member who's been here since JC was in short pants to call me an onanist, casts aspersions of my family lineage in British/Cockney slang yet when I respond I get censure...At least I know, now, how the hierarchy works around here...Do you all kowtow to him and from bended knees placate his ego?

This matter is only about patent rights--not trademark or copyright--just patent.

The only thing that Ethan has is his own and the corporate name, that's it, no more and no less.
e.g. I make an exact copy of his Jerry Fish Magnum Camp knife--lay them side by side and you can not tell the difference, same scales, same steel, same heat treat, same blade colour--perfect in every way...I go out and sell this knife in the marketplace for 20% cheaper and I start garnering sales...As long as I don't put Becker, BK&T etc. on the knife, anywhere or in my advertising, I can tell him and of course Ka-Bar to go and pound sand...Why, because the knife, nor the blade shape and nor the handle shape are patented...If they were, I just wait the number of years until it expires and if I still want to, mass produce them in China and sell them; and again, I can tell him to go to Hell.

Look what happened to Samuel Colt when his revolving cylinder handgun's patent expired...Every gun maker in the world jumped headlong into producing their own variant(s) on the original design and even reversed engineered exact copies and others, like Remington, even improved it...Colt couldn't do a bloody damn thing about it except for suing those who made fakes, using the Colt's name without his/their permission as the name was the only thing that Samuel owned anymore.

Then again, a maker can authorize another maker to make items for them when production runs overwhelm the original maker's shop as long as it meets the original's criteria in every way and that's their purview not the designer's.

Intellectual property is only there if the "item" has been published © or registered as a trademark ®.

Then, you can put the name, picture, verse etc. by just adding the respective circled letters...Putting an exact copy of a song or poem into your book requires permission from the author, their estate or their agent and has to be listed as such: with permission, name of author, song/poem title and publisher if known unless it has come into common usage; like Happy Birthday!

Look at Jimmy Lyle and Gil Hibbin and Rambo®...They still made their own models of the knives used in the movies and could only call them Rambo if they had the permission of the movie's production company and/or Stallone himself because they didn't own the rights to that name...They could put in their advertising that they were the makers of the knife in the movies but unless Stallone et al said yes they couldn't put it on their knives and for which Stallone et al would get a portion of each and every sale...United and now Master come out and make authorized copies of the knives but they didn't care about Gil or Jimmy as the Rambo knife is owned by Stallone et al...Granted Gil had a good report with United but that's an aside...Not, the blade, knife or handle design but the name for that iconic blade...How many versions of that same knife are out there, being sold by dealers that don't have Rambo® on the blade? And all perfectly legal.

The knife designer can approach a large commercial maker and have them make knives for him to sell on his own and that's where their interests would end; he can give them exclusive rights to all of his design(s); he can have them make certain model(s) of his knives or he can have different knives made by different makers. e.g. Bob Dozier having knives made and sold by Boker and Ka-Bar.

Oh, Phil Gibbs, even if you miraculously shat those mould scales from your arse and had them blessed by the pope himself, unless you had a [now long expired] patent on them then they're nothing but semi holy faeces.

Quoted before the edit

 

[Codger_64]

That's going to leave a mark. Intellectual property law is not as simple as most laymen tend to believe. Though generally, it has been through gentlemen's agreements among cutlery industry leaders which has for the most part precluded one from copying anothers' designs and construction ideas, more so than the legal technicalities of trademark registrations, design patents and utility patents. Boker Germany just demonstrated such a gentleman's action once informed that a product they were selling was a direct knockoff. Kudos to them.

 

[Bladite]

Mr. Becker was making knives long before 1878?
I didn't think he was quite that old....
You learn something new everyday.

before they bought into the ideer.

that's mod sass! also elder abuse! and stuff. neener

 

[Bladite]

...

e.g. I make an exact copy of his Jerry Fish Magnum Camp knife--lay them side by side and you can not tell the difference, same scales, same steel, same heat treat, same blade colour--perfect in every way...I go out and sell this knife in the marketplace for 20% cheaper and I start garnering sales...As long as I don't put Becker, BK&T etc. on the knife, anywhere or in my advertising, I can tell him and of course Ka-Bar to go and pound sand...Why, because the knife, nor the blade shape and nor the handle shape are patented...If they were, I just wait the number of years until it expires and if I still want to, mass produce them in China and sell them; and again, I can tell him to go to Hell.

...

The knife designer can approach a large commercial maker and have them make knives for him to sell on his own and that's where their interests would end; he can give them exclusive rights to all of his design(s); he can have them make certain model(s) of his knives or he can have different knives made by different makers. e.g. Bob Dozier having knives made and sold by Boker and Ka-Bar.

Oh, Phil Gibbs, even if you miraculously shat those mould scales from your arse and had them blessed by the pope himself, unless you had a [now long expired] patent on them then they're nothing but semi holy faeces.

well, if you made an exact copy, and esp if you sold it in the usa, you would likely get some attention from that, and not the good kind, i should imagine; if you happened to notice, some makers are sue happy about various knife FEATURES (like a hole), and will happily go after you all day long. anyone can be sued. they might even be in the wrong, but they will try.

now, let's say Camillus had various rights to the handles in 1999, and it's 2013 now let's call it that 15 years. not very long time there for primary registration rights to expire. as well, such things can be renewed in various ways. KaBar has a complete NEW set of designs on those handles, including materials, shapes, etc. there have been many generation of handle designs, and i'm sure each one has some legal protections. there are unique features, and those can be protected, and be pursued.

if you want to copy a Jerry FISK knife, go ahead. national treasure he is, ain't nobody gunna pay you a kinda word for it. a few others might have something to say. now, if you change the handle style? and the shape? then it's not a copy. but if the ghost buster logo designers/users/owners can be sued (and lose) for infringing on the look and feel of casper the friendly ghost (which is bloody decades old), well, look and feel is apparently at least one aspect you can readily protect and pursue.

and yes, Phil did indeed have them blessed by the pope

i expect this thread to be closed and certain parties to be smited shortly, so i'll end this quickly [and yes, Phil was warned too, not just you]

 

[Bladite]

lol. movie knives...

i prefer "the hunted" myself. original design. original maker what claims that anyone can copy him, he doesn't care. you love it or you hate it. someone cares though, and he claims it's his design and make, even though it's clear he's not a designer or maker and his designated factory really cares. though their version has little to do with the movie knife.

but mostly this stuff comes down to who is willing to protect their rights (or give them away in the first place). you can have all the legal protections you want, but if you don't pursue those rights, they can be ignored, or worse, taken away and reassigned.

 

[stvpourciau]

I had no idea that the gentleman who designed the Rambo knives used on the set of the film were "copying" Their own designs...

 

[Cap’n Smudge]

In before the lock.
SeekHer, there are different types of right and wrong. Laws don't cover everything. Although your legal argument may be correct it does not make it right. Some people are incapable of understanding this.
Boker Germany's response to the matter is probably the result of multiple factors. One could very well be that they didn't want any legal problems with Becker/kabar. See, even if your legal argument is correct, it can still cost a lot of time and money to prove that point. Goodbye.

ETA: I say good on boker for dumping the garbage.

 

[AfghanWarrior]

So, it's okay for a member who's been here since JC was in short pants to call me an onanist, casts aspersions of my family lineage in British/Cockney slang yet when I respond I get censure...At least I know, now, how the hierarchy works around here...Do you all kowtow to him and from bended knees placate his ego?
.

SeekHer Modus operandi seems to be name calling. Look at this other forum where he is a Master at it.

Boker could very easily tell Ethan to go fornicate with himself.
[We aren't going to make this a cross-forum problem, discussion will remain here or not at all]


[We aren't going to make this a cross-forum problem, discussion will remain here or not at all]




Do you really think that a first rated company that is famous for its collaborations with noted knife makers/designers would stoop that low for competition with third ranked Ka-Bar and Ethan is out of the question since he has no patent rights involved in this matter--then again neither does Ka-Bar.

[We aren't going to make this a cross-forum problem, discussion will remain here or not at all]








My bad.

I am glad Boker USA was 100% super in all of this nonsense.:thumbup: I do like my Boker speed lock folder. I liked, but never purchased the Boker reproduction WWI Trench Knife. It was way cool looking for old technology.