Budget chef's knife that will hold an edge

Beastchopper

Beastchopper

Joined
Jun 23, 2018
Messages
321
http://imgur.com/gallery/7j9Y507
I'm into big wood chopping knives and machetes, but as much as i like chopping firewood and de-limbing branches, I chop food and cook a lot more. The link shows my current chef's knife which I like and use every day, but it just doesn't stay sharp long enough. I have a ceramic rod and even pass it through the KOWorksharp grinder every once in a while, but before too long it's not as sharp as I'd like it. Does anyone know of a chef's knife similar to this design or at least not japanese with decent steel that costs around $50 or less than $100?
Thanks
 
Are you sure you're honing properly on your ceramic rod? Cheaper European style knives really like to be honed on a steel right before use... you may be scraping off your cutting edge with that ceramic rod instead of straightening it back up with a steel.
 
bemymonkey said:
Are you sure you're honing properly on your ceramic rod? Cheaper European style knives really like to be honed on a steel right before use... you may be scraping off your cutting edge with that ceramic rod instead of straightening it back up with a steel.
Click to expand...
My ceramic "superstick" is pretty coarse for a ceramic hone. I get it ok sharp and I try to keep it in line with the bevel, but i could be having a problem there. That said, I don't have time to hone it every day. Thanks for fhe feedback.
 
Anyone have any good charts comparing rockwell hardness or edge retention for steels used in kitchen knives?
 
Ditch the plastic cutting board. They are terrible for knife edges. Stay away from glass, ceramic and bamboo as well. Just get a good hardwood board.
 
Eli Chaps said:
Ditch the plastic cutting board. They are terrible for knife edges. Stay away from glass, ceramic and bamboo as well. Just get a good hardwood board.
Click to expand...
I used to have wood, it wad great, but started warping and falling apart. Good large wooden cutting boards are $$. Do you think I should be ok with better steel i should be ok if I sharpen it once in a while?
 
Beastchopper said:
I used to have wood, it wad great, but started warping and falling apart. Good large wooden cutting boards are $$. Do you think I should be ok with better steel i should be ok if I sharpen it once in a while?
Click to expand...

If it were me? I start by getting a new cutting board and keeping that knife. I just looked up a John Boos maple 18"x12" board on a big retailer site that has stuff for bedrooms, bathrooms, and beyond (non-supporting vendor so can't link) for ~$52. It's not ideal but way better than plastic. Then go to the supermarket pharmacy section and grab a bottle of laxative grade mineral oil for around $5. Liberally rub it into all sides of the board. Let it soak in and then do it again a couple more times. This will dramatically reduce warping. Do this every couple months or when the board looks dry.

Then I'd get a Norton Crystolon JB8 combination stone and a red permanent marker and start learning how to sharpen.

You can make-shift a strop easy enough.

The bolster on that knife poses some challenges but the steal is very responsive to sharpening so it's a good place to learn.

That's what I'd do. :)
 
Beastchopper said:
http://imgur.com/gallery/7j9Y507
The link shows my current chef's knife which I like and use every day, but it just doesn't stay sharp long enough. I have a ceramic rod . Does anyone know of a chef's knife similar to this design or at least not japanese with decent steel that costs around $50 or less than $100?
Thanks
Click to expand...

European knives use a number of Krupp 4116 variants, all high in chromium, and all fairly soft around 57/58 HRC, which is why the edge retention is not great. As it is fairly soft, the edge can roll and should be used with a steel.
Japanese knives generally use harder steels at 59/60 HRC and above like VG10, and when you get into the powder steels like R2, Hap40, ZDP-189 we're talking 62+ HRC and very high edge retention. If you like the blade profile of your current knife, look at the Shuns. But f you like the full bolster, only European makers offer that.
However, better edge retention from harder steels will invariably be above your price budget.
 
Beastchopper said:
My ceramic "superstick" is pretty coarse for a ceramic hone. I get it ok sharp and I try to keep it in line with the bevel, but i could be having a problem there. That said, I don't have time to hone it every day. Thanks for fhe feedback.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you're honing wrong. Shouldn't take you longer than a few seconds, and you should be doing it pretty much every time you use your knife. That's edge maintenance 101 for soft European kitchen knives. Actual sharpening on the other hand, sure, do it every few weeks or even months depending on how much you use your knife.

Forget getting a "better" or harder steel for now - learn to keep your current knife sharp first.
 
Beastchopper said:
Anyone have any good charts comparing rockwell hardness or edge retention for steels used in kitchen knives?
Click to expand...

Larrin just got a catra machine and did some extensive testing on 48 steels here if you want to geek out:

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/

As a maker, I always refer back to Larrins work. FYI he is an active member here on the makers forum. Something to note when seeking high edge retention. High edge retention usually comes at the cost of cutting ability (due to large carbides), difficulty to sharpen and toughness but not always. Think s90v. Edge geometry is far more important than the steel followed by optimal heat treat to match the edge geometry. Larrin has another article here about this.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/category/steel-and-knife-properties/corrosion-resistance/

A knife ground to less than 0.005" will still cut on geometry even once the initial edge has dulled. All my knives will slice paper right off the grinder without having being sharpened yet because they are so thin. I grind my kitchen knives to about 0.002" before sharpening. A couple light passes over a steel will bring them back to sharp. You can only get hair popping or hair whittling sharp off a fine stone and a strop but an edge like that wont last long. If the geometry is thin, it will still cut extremely well despite having lost the initial keenness.

So I noted that the steel is not the most important. What is (geometry and heat treat) takes time and your going to have to pay for it. Here's a scandi ground knife that I ground to a zero grind at 10.5 degrees per side. I hammered it through a nail I didn't see in a 2x4 I was batoning and all it had was a chip about 1/32". This knife was heat treated to 63 hrc. I was trying to get the knife to fail in this test and couldn't. Even coring a hole and side loading the edge. This steel 15N20 is nothing special btw.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_gaZ3NDT8m/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
 
  • Like
Reactions: kms
This is from Larrins article I posted above. The numbers on the left are from the Catra testing with higher being better.

CATRA-4-27-2020-2.jpg
 
What Danke42 said...Victorinox Fibrox 8" Chef's knife---best everyday user out there for a kitchen knife imho...holds an edge well, light, comfortable handle, nimble, great ergos and pretty tough...It won't impress anyone unless they've used one, but it can't be beat and you can pick one up for about $45--other than that if you are lucky sometimes you can find an older Sabatier style with good carbon steel for about the same amount...though the wooden handle scales often need some work to bring them back to snuff
 
boy lots of opinions.. very hard steel is very hard to sharpen, soft steel doesnt last your cutting. good carbon is easy to hone and easy to sharpen and always sharp. i have some of those very hard steels and only use them never.. carry one on my belt hardly gets used. but stays sharp. i hate sharpening it.. and bamboo is good not bad like some say..
 
I think this is a bit of an over simplification. Edge geometry is way more important than steel type. For a kitchen knife you likely won't have something extremely hard and long edge retention and for sure not in your price range. Even somewhat "softer" steels will cut well after the initial sharpness is gone and a hard thin knife will sharpen quickly since there is little metal to remove. As noted above, the victorinox knives do get really good reviews.



rc4u12 said:
boy lots of opinions.. very hard steel is very hard to sharpen, soft steel doesnt last your cutting. good carbon is easy to hone and easy to sharpen and always sharp. i have some of those very hard steels and only use them never.. carry one on my belt hardly gets used. but stays sharp. i hate sharpening it.. and bamboo is good not bad like some say..
Click to expand...
 
The OP has a Forschner, they are the same company, Forschner Victorinox. I fail to see an upgrade by buying a cheaper version with a Victorinox label over what he currently has. Perhaps there is something I don't know about these new Victorinox knifes?

Like Eli said a cutting board would be an upgrade.

Beastchopper,
It's unfortunate that you don't want to look at Japanese made blades because their are many examples that would be an upgrade in the $100 range.
 
garry3 said:
The OP has a Forschner, they are the same company, Forschner Victorinox. I fail to see an upgrade by buying a cheaper version with a Victorinox label over what he currently has. Perhaps there is something I don't know about these new Victorinox knifes?

Like Eli said a cutting board would be an upgrade.

Beastchopper,
It's unfortunate that you don't want to look at Japanese made blades because their are many examples that would be an upgrade in the $100 range.
Click to expand...
I'd definitely check out any suggestions, but I'm familiar with the european style handle and I don't want a round, oval, or octagonal little handle like I see on many Japanese kitchen blades.
 
IMG_20200520_154146_736.jpg
Beastchopper said:
I'd definitely check out any suggestions, but I'm familiar with the european style handle and I don't want a round, oval, or octagonal little handle like I see on many Japanese kitchen blades.
Click to expand...
You can get a japanese blade with a western handle. Above is knife I was asked to rehandle. I went from western to wa but they are out there. I had already pulled the pins in the before shot. Not sure what you'll find in your budget though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top